Enemy Categorization is Disorganized

[souI23]

GREAT post. Totally agree.

Anyway let me ask two things.

• you said this will not change any breakpoints… but I have some doubts. Not that it’s a bad idea… but this GOOD change should be accompanied by a balance patch, to better define the new breakpoints;
• how would you handle shotguns? For example they are very good vs infantry and berserker but weak vs armors… but now they are all under “elites”.
  Do you mean that certain enemies, beyond their category (elites, specials, etc etc), should have the status of armoured? Like a bonus, I mean. And what weapons would be weak against this status? Because weapons damage’s tables too would be divided into your new tiers. We would not have “armours damage” anymore.

Anyway, as you said, it’s an idea a little bit hard to be applied… wanting proceed step by step, the first one should be put every boss and Lord under Monster tier.
Second point should be rework monks and chaos berserkers (since power vs berserker is really useless)… maybe could they be just infantry BUT with a bigger amount of HP (they would be still strong vs many ranged weapons, still weak vs shotguns)?

@TmanDW

What my suggestion would be, is to get rid of the “power increase vs. …” property altogether. Then each weapon can be balanced around fair breakpoints for that weapon. Some classes could still get a power increase like it’s implemented right now, but that power increase can be tweaked so that the class is able to hit better breakpoints for the weapons it has available. Would also be a herculean effort to implement, I know, but it would solve a lot. And as you said, any of these measures should be accompanied by a crafting (and traits / properties) rework as well.

This would NOT totally wrong but… don’t you think, in this way, we would have less power of choice on our build?

@Adelion

I will mostly ignore the rest of the thread as this is the more discussed point at the moment. I understand that mini-bosses and bosses should apply to the monster category. It makes sense and if I want to be a boss-killer I should have a certain reliance in doing this.

However, this should not apply to Lords. There should be no category like Lord-killer. DPS classes should still do more damage (as they do in the Nurgloth fight) but you shouldnt be able to specifically spec for them. Lords should be something which throw a wrench in every imaginable built. That would be good design and as such I would prefer for all Lords to be re-adressed and make them a better, challenging experience.

If you check your list from the Lords you will notice that from the Lords just two have actually the Monster category. One of them is Death Rattler which is an addition to Rasknitt and a modified Rat Ogre. So him being Monster makes sense.
What doesn’t make sense however is Burblespue Halescourge being Monster. And I am heavily assuming it is because we have no other category which would fit him. So I don’t see the great idea to change the category of ALL OTHER LORDS just to fit the arbitary “Should be monster” rule which at the moment only two Lords have. The categories chosen for them are fitting and should stay like this. The only thing we could discuss is introducing new special categories for Lords which can’t be specced towards like:

• Introducing a Wizard category for Rasknitt and Burblespue (just removing the second category for Burblespue would work too)
• Introducing a Demon category for Nurgloth with the same properties as Berserker (although Berserker fits as he works like one in phase 3 and he is a Lord infused with demonice powers)

Actually, introducing a Wizard cagtegory for Rasknitt, Burblespure and Nurgloth would make sense.

Little premise. I know, we already talked on this argument into this thread, but let’s be honest… that thread it’s a little bit confusing and I want to write it more clearly here (also to be read by @OenKrad).
But don’t worry, I don’t want to start another infinite discussion, after this I will not answer you anymore.

Returning in topic I can’t understand why bosses killers must not be Lords killers too. Or better I can imagine your point of view, you don’t want to see a Lord killed in few seconds… but these arguments aren’t one the consequence of the other.

If a career is bosses and Lords killer doesn’t mean that that career must kill Lords in one second… there are other ways to make Lords tougher.
For example, using Monster type, the two chaos Lords would be already much more tougher.

Moreover, putting all bosses and Lords under Monster tier, would help other points:

• the game would be more clear for many players (remember that “we” are a minority… most players don’t use mods, don’t use forums, don’t search on internet);
• it’s frustrating not being able to specialize in something;
• the roleplay would be improved. Maybe is it a subjective point? Maybe… but if I set my career to kill huge targets, or simply if I imagine myself as bosses slayer, I find it pretty sad if I can’t “use my build” (probably you don’t agree about what “use my build” means… just a different vision) vs Lords just because I must not;
• this would be an easier change… adding a new category only for Lords would be complicated;

I can understand you want see Lords as:

Lords should be something which throw a wrench in every imaginable built.

But Lords maps are just normal maps… maps chosen randomly from a pool of maps that give the same reward. They can’t be a spike of difficulty… the old SKIPPERgate shows it. People are quitting from Nurgloth too.

@KaelusVonSestiaf

I support these changes as long as the categorization of enemies stops being linked to their actual armor type, so that Nurgloth can still have berserker armor

Same speech as above, I don’t wanto to start the same discussion here… but I can’t understand your words.

There are many players that are showing how berserker tier on a Lord create some problems
+
You love berserker type on Nurgloth because it makes the Lord tough
+
There are more options to make Lords tougher

There is no need because we should use the berserker type for a Lord… we could adopt different options to make Lords tougher.