Encouraging Teamplay and Scoreboards

[Pumis]

@JDLS

People still want to know how they did in that game. And how they are doing relative to people in general. This gives a way for people to see that without the issues of seeing the individual stats of other players.

But as said single picture of the scoreboard doesn’t tell how well someone actually did.

@kqgee

I agree that more players would pick the elf but the assumptions are all speculative at best.

Most people who I played long term would’ve picked Kerilia if available. Ogryns in darktide is good example. You see them rarely and that’s because they are considered as worst class.

@kqgee

I dont see a scoreboard as a damage race.

There are people who see it as race and that is objective fact. These forums have had even people gloating around shaming people regarding to scoreboard. Where on steam forums the common argument “for scoreboard” is that “you just suck therefore you don’t want it”, or “how were suppose to know who was being terrible without it”.

@kqgee

I find Ogryn the most fun so I play Ogryn

This makes you an outliner.

@kqgee

For me, its a reflection on performance

How does it reflect your performance. High kills and it was good performance?
It always comes down to this. You guys spend time trying to pretend as if you don’t care kills and damage yet you judge your performance on how many kills and damage you did in comparison to others.

@kqgee

You look at yourself and what you know you can do vs everyone else.

Again pointless

@kqgee

Plus it would open the door to new classes if you saw a vet who always brings X weapon and always has most special kills.

Why play anything else than the best one at the meta?

[Index]

first of all, i´m not opposed to options when it comes to scoreboards.
everyone should have his version that helps him the most to improve and clarify his weaknesses/deficits.

however, the options mentioned above seem far to “kumbaya” for my taste, not how i “operate” or motivate myself.

main problem i see is re-directing the energy into “picking up-no matter what” is a recipe to put yourself and your mates in a worse situation, wasting ressources in order to get them “team points”.

sometimes its wiser to let someone die and rezz at a safer position or in case of people far out of their league looking for handouts or an easy carry, to not bother at all.

and this is another “problem” i sense from this approach “freeloading”.
to me it reads like a lot of “excuses” carrying unfit people through the match they arent fit or prepared for, ultimately enforcing bad habbits like "hey i made it to the end, thats all that matters right? "

dont get me wrong, i tend to help people in a pinch when up until then they carried their weight somewhat or, like all of us, messed up occasionally and put themselves in a situation, happens.

but since havoc made auric mandatory as entry ticket, a LOT of underperforming people want to squeeze through, no matter what and truth be told, they need to learn the hard way, if at all.

getting them through isnt teaching them anything or helping them improve, its shoving weight from one side to the other and they are non the wiser for it.

so instead of handing them the fish, i´d like to teach them (if possible) to catch for themselves, ONCE.
after that, its do or die, i dont get paid to enjoy my passtime and personally i use my energy to force myself into the best version of myself i can be.
by tooth and nail if need be.

and that brings me to yesterdays example.
twice i was outmatched by 2 excellent ogryn players, being an ogryn main and only myself.

no matter what i did, they did it better and i have to them for it.
now, was i happy being put in my place, of course not.

in best “crom” behaviour, " i was angered, i was shook" couldnt strike em down with lightning and toss their bodies into the sea but got the first part nailed

now, whos fault was it? MINE of course.
over the last 2 months i got complacent, lazy and maneuvered myself into stagnation.
it needed that jolt to get me out of my lethargy , may lazy 4ss moving into overdrive and me back to tinkering with my loadout and gear.

and you know what, it´s the most motivation i felt for darktide in a long time.
all night i was pondering how they pulled it off, whats lacking with my build and how i can improve upon.

for the longest time i was experimenting with blessings, talents, perks and weapons and had that fire again to break past that plateau and come out on top again next time.

THATS what motivates me in gaming, be it pvp or pve, you ALWAYS compete, if not with others directly then with yourself and beat your yesterdays version.

and oddly enough, after the 2 encounters, i immediately improved switching gear, chucking another energy drink and go HAM the next 14 matches until darktide for the first time ever crashed with “out of memory” error.

that anger fueled my desire to up my game and i did.

now i havent cracked the code on what the other 2 did exactly BUT i got close within 8 hours of encountering them.

without a proper scoreboard i only would have seen more enemies dropping faster and easier in their encounters, but the absolute numbers were a much deserved kick in my butt to get off my high horse and improve my game.

and for that i am very thankful to the 2 ogryn dudes, very well played mates

besides, thats the adult reaction to getting put in your place, not sulking in a corner “mommy told me i was special” but to accept your deficits and to the humanly possible to eredicate them.

[JDLS]

I can somewhat relate to some of these points. The scoreboard mod is personally what got me back into the game, it gave me the numbers I needed myself to improve. And well over something like ~60 hours I went from struggling with heresy to solo carrying auric damnation.

But while some people can be self motivated like this the whole game’s population probably isn’t. A lot of people will struggle to hit that balance between team play and damage that is important at higher difficulties. That’s what I’m trying to accomplish here, a in mission system that rewards you for helping the team, and a out of mission system that breaks down your performance more, and gives you important feedback on how well you are actually using your build.

And besides for very motivated players people could still use the scoreboard mod. Not like adding a in game scoreboard would stop that. I’m just trying to suggest a system that would help the average player improve the most.

[kqgee]

[JDLS]

I don’t think you understand this man.

The scoreboard he is refereeing to:

I had to take a day break responding to him because it is seriously making me doubt my sanity reading his posts.

[Scipo0419]

@Pumis

Only stats that matters are the average of multiple gameplays you had. Not the one game you just had.

You’re making a case for having a history with a average of the past 5 games/wins and an average of all games. You’re absolutely right that one single run doesn’t tell you much without something to compare it too, but if there was a overall game average and you could see how you’ve been performing to the global average for your class it would help give you a baseline to compare it to.

Look at something like FF Logs for FFXIV. Your parse is compared to all other parses for your job for that fight to give you a score rating showing how you performed in that run. Giving you a way to see “oh, I did really bad compared to most other Bards. Let me use XIVAnalysis to get a breakdown of my parse and see where I can improve.”

Obviously, an MMO parse and a Tide Series scoreboard aren’t exactly the same. But how they can be used as a tool is similar. A parse can give you your dps compared to all other players of the same class in a specific fight, while the scoreboard can give you your performance compared to your team in that match to get an idea of how well you did. Seeing a history of your past wins with an area with the scores averaged can even show you where you’ve improved and how well you’re doing on average lately. Add in global averages for your class and you can see that on average, Psykers have been getting scores like this on average and you’re doing this

[Pumis]

maybe you shouldn’t be jumping up on conclusion and thinking as if someone is insulting you even though no one haven’t so you wouldn’t lose your “sanity”.

[Pumis]

Would need to be more than 5 games. 5 games isn’t enough to rule out multiple variables. Such as different class and talent combinations, different player skill levels. It’s very easy to come into false conclusion on basis of 5 games alone and I doubt that anyone using scoreboard is actually playing around 100 games and making excelsheet calculations about the averages of each run. Of course everything needs to be in same map as well since that causes variety as well.

What I’m getting at, yes it can be used as tool, but no one can honestly claim that they are using it as genuine tool unless they actually use scientific scrutinity with it. It’s just excuse used to bash on other players and stroking one’s own ego.

[JDLS]

“Im not calling you a liar” “You are just lying”
direct screenshot:

Fact is I don’t call you a liar when you bring up your in game experience. I take it as fact and take that into account when making my suggestions. Hence why my post is entirely about reducing toxicity while still helping people improve. Meanwhile you just call me a liar so you don’t need to address my experience.

You consistently saying that I am a liar or greedy or anything like that, and then denying that you are saying that is insane.

[JDLS]

Again an argument that has been disproven by me and others numerous times. Fact is stats aren’t that inconsistent usually around +/- 15% and I have shown you large records of my past scoreboards to show that. Using a bit of common sense to eliminate variables is all you need to get accurate statistics here.

[Pumis]

Likelyhood of lying is not same as claiming that you lie. It’s just to point out that due to your bias I, nor anyone should trust your words alone.
Again this is great example of you trying to read between the lines and use that as way to poison the well in attempt to manipulate the discourse.

“Fact is stats aren’t that inconsistent usually around +/- 15% and I have shown you large records of my past scoreboards to show that.”
Fact is that you have no control when playing with randoms that which builds and personal skill levels they have. You could easily have 5 games with total noobs and show high score because of it and lead you into thinking that your build is the best thing ever.

[JDLS]

@Pumis

Likelyhood of lying is not same as claiming that you lie. It’s just to point out that due to your bias I, nor anyone should trust your words alone.

Its simple, in a good faith discussion you don’t just claim someone is untrustworthy and biased. You take them at their word and argue against that. You try to use your own personal experience while dismissing other’s.

@Pumis

Fact is that you have no control when playing with randoms that which builds and personal skill levels they have. You could easily have 5 games with total noobs and show high score because of it and lead you into thinking that your build is the best thing ever.

Again basic reasoning lets you filter out, outliers. If you think your team is bad for a game then you can reason that your stats may be a little higher this game. If your team is very good then your stats may be a little lower this game.

@JDLS

How could we make statistics useful to the average player

Please read this section as it goes into more detail. Yes just looking at scoreboards isn’t the best system, that’s why I suggested this.

[Pumis]

@JDLS

Its simple, in a good faith discussion you don’t just claim someone is untrustworthy and biased.

Because it’s logical fallacy, and you have demostrated bad faith with your constant manipulation, ad hominems and twisting what other people say. I have literally 0 reason to believe your word when you consistently misrepresent what I had said and even throw insults on consistent manner.

@JDLS

If you think your team is bad for a game then you can reason that your stats may be a little higher this game.

You can very well have multiple matches straight with bad teammates. You clearly don’t understand how statistics work. This is why you need multiple matches and count the averages between the matches. This is why scientific studies need larger sample than mere 5 tests.

@JDLS

Yes just looking at scoreboards isn’t the best system, that’s why I suggested this.

And as explained it doesn’t remove the issue. Ego player who just chase the high numbers for sake of their own ego.

[weeping.moon]

@Pumis

Fact is that you have no control when playing with randoms that which builds and personal skill levels they have. You could easily have 5 games with total noobs and show high score because of it and lead you into thinking that your build is the best thing ever.

Fact is noone will make any conclusion after 5 games. There are not so many variables, wich you learn with time, cause community finds a consensus about meta and shares testing result. And if you are mastering every class and most of the weapons or just grind unhealthy ammount of hours, you understand what to expect. Should i even say FS doesn’t shift meta too often?

The more data you collect the more trustful result you will have. You are just projecting your insecurity. High level players with huge ego are in fact mostly chill and don’t brag in random lobby, they are busy with testing the game as a mechanism or doing true solo/duo.

Noobs will shittalk to each other, no matter what, because they don’t understand the game, don;t care to improve, but their tiny ego can’t handle that and they need someone to blame. I’ve seen deadweighters were shitalking but after being called out of having the lowest score they suddenly went silent.

And you don’t rly need a scoreboard to see someone keep being knocked every encounter, fighting poxwalkers instead of rescuing disabled mates, and suck all meds. Noone cares about some dmg output difference rly, except to discuss on the forum how something is a powercreep trivializing the game.

[JDLS]

@Pumis

Because it’s logical fallacy, and you have demostrated bad faith with your constant manipulation, ad hominems and twisting what other people say.

You know people can read your prior messages right? Just because you don’t outright insult people doesn’t mean you aren’t deliberately slandering people, even if you veil it in fancy words. Such as: you still insisting I am a greedy zealot player because I picked up 4 ammo packs in a game where basically no one else picked up ammo.

But of course you wont say I am a greedy zealot, that’s me making up a strawman of course. You just say “You took the most ammo in that game, you are clearly hogging all the ammo”. A implied insult is still a insult, even if you dont outright call me greedy you are still implying I am greedy, just like you imply I am a liar despite never lying once in any conversation we have had and regularly backing up everything I say with screenshots. You literally said I faked scoreboards because they didn’t agree with you.

And more over, you still insist on using your own personal experiences as evidence, and also the personal experiences of anything that seems like it agrees with you. But you dismiss anyone’s experiences that disagree with you because they are biased.

@Pumis

You can very well have multiple matches straight with bad teammates. You clearly don’t understand how statistics work. This is why you need multiple matches and count the averages between the matches. This is why scientific studies need larger sample than mere 5 tests.

You have had this same discussion hundreds of times at this point and every time you are disproven by people educated in statistics. When you see the variance between individual tests you can determine the needed amount of tests to get a accurate sample. Yes there is some astronomically small chance that you get 5 or even 10 games in a row where everyone else on your team is a god and makes your stats super thrown off. But we can safely exclude that as a statistical possibility because its so rare. And in every other case we can use basic reasoning to filter the statistics to be more usable.

Again please read the “How could we make statistics useful to the average player” section

@Pumis

And as explained it doesn’t remove the issue. Ego player who just chase the high numbers for sake of their own ego.

Firstly this is rare. Secondly I have already addressed this extensively in the " How could we limit the negative elements of a scoreboard?" section. If you have any arguments or suggestions there then please do share them.

[Index]

@weeping.moon

but their tiny ego can’t handle that and they need someone to blame

this.

people are under the illusion of games being a “passtime” others will be obligated to put up with their bullcrap and underperformance, effectively making it a worse experience for those motivated giving their best/all.

at the same time, they try everything to cloak themselves from scrutiny and hope to just “blend in/hop on for a carry”.

now if its a one-off or dude in question makes for a manageable carry instead of actively sabotaging the run, i welcome the additional dopamine and chance to “go ham”

BUT if the perp in question is running his mouth at any given time, he gets put by the neck and shoved nose first into his he left on the carpet, with no remorse on my end.

happened 3-4 times in about 1000 matches so far (905 of them uploaded to date, so much for enough source material of 100s of same maps with dozens of same compositions)

when i encounter people outperforming me, i see it as a welcome challenge to up my game and analyse where i went stagnant/wrong.

seems like the number-dodgers rather stay in la-la land and mandating for others having carry their sorry weight ad nausea.

in said 1000 matches i NEVER on my own mentioned score or even talked to others other than giving them the place to where they’d find the match in case they want to rewatch.

if they wanna tinker with the numbers at the end, fine by be.
likewise, NEVER has anyone left a negative comment based on the presence of my scoreboard at the end, not that i would mind either

take from that what you will

[Scipo0419]

Firstly, that was just an example of how it could work. The history would only be related to your current character so only your talents, gear, and teammates would be variables (if you even changed up the talents and gear of course). But 5 games is plenty to get an idea how your last 5 games went with the Average being an average of all games done on that character.

[weeping.moon]

@Index

when i encounter people outperforming me, i see it as a welcome challenge to up my game and analyse where i went stagnant/wrong.

Yeap. Psyker is my least played class, i put it through the several iterations after i’ve seen people having nice scores while mechanicaly performing on kinda the same level as me. Doesn’t matter it can be inaccurate to some degree still a great tool gives you “hmmm i might be doing something wrong” thought.

[Jonn]

@Pumis

You could easily have 5 games with total noobs and show high score because of it and lead you into thinking that your build is the best thing ever.

Wouldn’t this problem just autocorrect itself? By checking what info you have gathered with the scoreboard to constantly make new assumptions on the performance of the build you are using, or are people just going to run five games and never look at any relevant stats ever again to determine if the build is good or not?

[Index]

as ogryn only, i had two encounters where shout was giving them the edge in killing more ragers/maulers faster with karsolas than my branx and bullrush.

while the later being my “comfort zone” i, for the longest time, felt motivated switching talents and gear, trying to alter my playstyle accordingly and see if i get the same rush/bang for my buck.

if it doesnt click, so be it.
rather play reliably and profound than convert into a one off glas cannon.

BUT if i can mix the best of two worlds aka

•karsolas attack slide instead of bullrush
•slaughterer and headtaker instead of thrust
•rumbler to soften bulwarks and crushers instead
of kickback

then i will have improved upon a style i was rocking the last 6 months.