Buddy you’re just wrong and straw-manning, bring a knife to gun fight next time why don’t you
1 Like
Ok buddy. The questions you keep dodging all came from people being perfectly level and reasonable. It seems like the tone doesn’t matter, you dodge simple questions anyway.
What is the point of so many difficulty levels with the way you interpret Havoc? And why is it unreasonable to reserve Havoc 40 for the best of the best when there are 39 other Havoc levels and 5 base game difficulties for everyone else to play at and enjoy?
I understand the perspective you’ve presented, it just falls apart because you refuse to address this core issue that has been pointed out to you pointless times in this thread. If you want to argue the validity of your community’s perspective you need to actually address the issues with it that have been raised.
8 Likes
Genuinely nice edit, but how do you possibly justify your view that ranged isn’t easier? You are literally out of the attack range of a shocking number of enemies you are attacking? How could enemies being unable to attack you before you kill them not be easier than getting up in their face?
Obviously many still can, but every melee elite and trash mob is fighting you at a huge relative disadvantage when you’re just unloading clips non stop.
5 Likes
If you saw my other reply, I already answered this question. In our view, the 39 tiers of Cataclysm difficulty are just superficial. Only up to tier 30 is there any meaningful difficulty difference. For us, only around tier 30 counts as a distinct difficulty step; the gaps between other tiers don’t qualify as separate difficulties. Depending on mob spawns and modifiers, even tier 22 can sometimes be harder than 23. This is how our community sees Cataclysm’s difficulty scaling.
To us, there are effectively only six difficulty levels, with the sixth being Cataclysm 40 — or everything above tier 30. These six stages act as stepping stones for personal progression.
1 Like
It’s been a long time since I played Vermintide 2, but isn’t that how Sienna’s heat venting worked? You could vent manually at the cost of health to reduce it faster, or you could just wait for it to go down passively without losing health. That would give more incentive to switch to melee while waiting for peril to passively quell on Psyker. That was a more common playstyle in the early days of Darktide, but quelling is faster and easier now compared to the skill tree before patch 13.
I do prefer the current skill tree system over the old Vermintide style, but the power creep needs to be reined in. Unfortunately, Pandora’s box is already open and Fatshark is going to face backlash over any nerfs they do at this point, regardless of how justified the changes are.
3 Likes
The difficulty curve you champion is precisely a U-shaped valley: its wide, gentle bottom serves as a comfortable haven for the vast majority of players, while the sheer, towering peak on the right acts as a cold, natural barrier—forever shutting most people out of “top-tier difficulty,” as if it were an exclusive domain reserved only for a select few chosen ones.
The difficulty design we aspire to, however, is more like a stable, upright pyramid: its broad base is inclusive, firmly supporting every newcomer; its tiers rise steadily, each step marking tangible growth and progress; and though its apex is high, it is no unattainable castle in the air—it opens its doors to every climber willing to hone their skills and accumulate experience. With sweat and persistence, anyone can stand atop their own peak.
Of course, this metaphor may not be perfectly apt, and my understanding of your perspective may not be entirely accurate. I ask for your understanding.
1 Like
That’s the point of having an ultra-hard mode, it’s there to be a challenge, not necessarily there to be overcome. It’s content made for a small niche of dedicated enthusiasts to push the boundaries of what’s possible, not an endgame for everyone to grind through. Same way Ultra-Nightmare difficulty isn’t something for everyone to complete when playing Doom.
There’s nothing that Havoc is locking away from anyone, there’s no story elements hidden behind there, no gear drops, no exclusive missions or enemies, and if you’re playing a lot of hours anyway it’s not even particularly resource efficient vs just farming lower difficulty levels. There is no reason to play this mode except the added difficulty.
One can question whether Fatshark devoting so much dev time to a niche mode (and making balance decisions that affect the rest of the game) is wise given the other issues the game faces, but conceptually there’s nothing wrong with a skill-wall difficulty levels that not everyone can play at.
This is what Uprising, Malice, Heresy, Damnation, and Auric are for.
Damnation is the game’s default “Hard” mode, where enemies reach their peak individual threat level. To be direct, your average player, even those with hundreds of hours of playtime, find this plenty challenging and routinely wipe on this difficulty. This is “endgame” for most people. This and Heresy is where the overwhelmingly vast majority of the playerbase play.
Auric is “Harder than Hard” and is where the game starts to artificially add additional modifiers to missions and larger numbers of enemies. This is where most experienced and geared players should top out.
Havoc is yet another level beyond that, with 40 various tiers. If everyone is intended to clear H40 as a default endgame, why bother with any of the rest of these levels?
6 Likes
As I said before, it’s perfectly normal and fine for there to be difficulties that the AVERAGE player can’t do. It’s there to help incentivize them to be better players if they care enough to clear it and is doable by anyone with enough skill, but once they have enough skill, they’re not an “average” player anymore.
By having Havoc 40 clearable by everyone, including the average casual player, it will need to be made easier, either by nerfing enemies or buffing players, which then defeats the purpose of it being a challenge mode.
My previous example was Savage Raids in FFXIV, they’re available to anyone with enough skill, but they’re hard enough that an Average player won’t clear more than one or two of the raids, even in a premade party. It’s not designed for the average casual, and neither is Havoc 40
6 Likes
Oh my god what I was responding to got flagged. What is actually wrong with people? It was a funny meme pic come on 
@FatsharkJulia I’m sorry to keep tagging you but these false flags are getting out of control. Could we please have some kind of time out for repeated misuse of the flag feature?
@Archon_Dagoth I’m genuinely sorry you are getting flagged for light-hearted memes presumably by someone from my side of this argument. It’s coward behaviour and I respect your resilience to this nonsense even if I don’t care for your arguments. It was genuinely a funny edit and harmless banter I am so sick of people weaponising the flags.
4 Likes
Since I haven’t played Psyker since trying everything in the closed beta, am I remembering right that active quelling Peril doesn’t hurt you like active venting does for Sienna’s (and Kerillian’s) staves?
Correct. It has zero cost. Considering toughness talents quite the opposite. It actively heals you lmao.
6 Likes
That’s so absurd. Sure, Necromancer can regen more THP than she spends venting, but she actually needs nearby enemies for that to happen. Who thought that was a good idea? I knew Psykers were considered OP, but I didn’t realize their greatest strength had no downsides either lol
3 Likes
understanding isn’t the issue it’s just I don’t agree.
exactly what it is and should be, not an open club for every run along, but an exclusive collection of the most skilled players there are.
after all whats the point?
then again how havoc manages it by forcing mandatory stuff due to just number tweaking instead of upping the demand for mechanical skill aint a foolproof method either. 
without a meta build and randoms only? cause that is the definition of “own peak”, NOT having the help of others or only getting there due to cheapening the challenge.
every premade that concentrates on the most efficient way is a collective effort, not a personal achievement.
nothing I personally take pride in since at the end of the day I care only if I did better than last time
1 Like
@Hank_jw maybe hank can help too about it
As I said either in this or some another thread, you and whoever you represent just see DT as an arpg or mmo, you spam abilities, you grind and arrive to the endgame even if your mechanical skills are mid cause it’s compensated by the gear, build and abilities. Because in arpg’s end game is the game so it explains why you would think everyone should be able to enjoy the end game.
But DT is a skill based action game, with RPG elements for the sake of flavor and simple playstyle fantasy and setting representation.
And on top of that any complex arpg is a puzzle game in a way. DT has no systems in the first place to create a decent puzzle and to support it longterms. It’s 2 weapons with 2/2 perks and blessings, and 3 curios.
3 Likes
Word? I think the flag was valid. @Archon_Dagoth was accusing someone of lying while straw-manning them and also making arguments that are just objectively wrong (I very rarely use this term). If I get someone doing that in my Discord they’d likely end up timed out or banned.
I think @Archon_Dagoth just doesn’t have the wit necessary to make a good argument through humour.
6 Likes
Would be nice if Fatshark could share their vision for how they view their own difficulties, like they did with Vermintide 2 in the Winds of Magic dev blog. They definitely do treat many of the difficulties as stepping stones for player progression, but I fear the possibility that Fatshark just doesn’t have a vision for this game.
2 Likes
To be honest, I can also understand why you don’t agree with what I said—it’s perfectly normal for one player group to disagree with another. But when Fatshark is making balance changes, they should take the opinions of all player groups into account and find a middle ground between different perspectives
1 Like
What kind of middle ground mean can there be between those who believe Havoc 40 should be doable only for players at the peak of skill and those who believe Havoc 40 should be doable for those who play once a week?
3 Likes