Exactly, that’s what I was getting at. Because of Fatshark’s overly vague design choices, players have formed different understandings of what Damnation mode is supposed to be. This is not the fault of any individual player, and every perspective on Damnation has its own merit. Given how things stand, Fatshark should take far more factors into account when balancing the game, rather than only following their own unclear balancing philosophy.
I would like to thank you for maintaining a non-combative stance and for keeping a respectful tone despite our differing opinions. In the end, it’s not that deep or serious.
I can provide this to a mediator, don’t want monkey business being done with it via trough being shared out of context or whatnot. B-Sides, it’s not that hard to look at every other balance thread and see who is most passionate about nerfs, It’s not that deep and I doubt anyone would admit to me something like that even If I paid them v-bucks.
Also, don’t hang on the strawman I leave among the way, the combat axe was an example, I was not specifically saying;
literally. I was using Combat axe to illustrate how someone will always ask for “next strong thing” to be nerfed.
It isn’t in this specific context, what I meant was that it kinda proves my point, at least in a general sense. There will be goalposting, although so far and bellow you are providing receipts;
Force Sword was a new one to me ngl. If you told me this was a “denitive edition” of the nerf list, I wouldn’t batch an eye, although ogryn shield is also an weird one, but I guess if it cames with buffs to the rest of his kit I can see the taunt+debuff build being brought down a lil.
Uh, that’s like I said…an hypothesis, not a fact.
When I say stuff based on “feels” and “personal opinions” and “vibes” I get immediately called out on it and told a bunch of things, why can Murderer get away with murder?
Please explain like I’m 5. How would having “strong” options “demolish everything”?
I agree, but reality (sorry to use the word, but this time I mean it) is that Fatshark balances in what feels like a darts game. So I’m always wary in regards to balance discussions and possible repercussions, don’t want them hitting the “wrong targets”.
So, you want content to be more acessible? It seems you agree with me and Knight then, even if indirectly, possibly, maybe.
With the true solo mod and build editing being available I don’t think top players are restricted at all. There’s also other ways to rally for harder content than simple nerfs.
Maybe something is being lost in translation/interpretation here but, doesn’t this contradict what you said in 1? Sorry If I’m misunderstanding something, but it’s not clear to me which lane you are taking.
Yup.
That’s also a PvP “esports” type game. So balancing discussions should be a #1 priority there. This makes sense, even if the IP has power-levels all over the place.
I think the issue with this, is in who defines what is "radically overperforming " and who measures that gap or distance? Which are the factors here? What is okay and isn’t? Who gives the right to say so or not? I know it’s not a simple black and white answer, and I can feel fatshark struggles with this dilemma themselves, otherwise balance discussions wouldn’t be this heated.
This is the full quote, not sure if I even need to elaborate..?
I think it’s key to understand that player skill should be what unlocks difficulties, not weapons that are objectively stronger than others. You already see this with mod abusers, where it’s a H40 clear*
*with wall-hacks
And coordination & team-work is a skill, no shade on a group of “average players” clearing H40 because they work well as a squad.
If you feel bad for not playing H40, perhaps you should instead feel good that last week you beat H33 and this week you may overcome H34. That’s kind of the whole-ass point of having 40 freakin’ difficulties. Otherwise just make Havoc 1 & 0 
Ole Regi has the data. Hope ya like spreadsheets! They’ve got a youtube channel they post a lot of that stuff to, maybe other places as well, suffice to say it exists.
The short of it is that outliers provide low-TTK with high safety which erodes the gameplay experience as a whole. I’m not sure if you’re willing to stand by such a statement as DS/inferno/[insert obvious outlier here] is balanced and healthy for the game..? Start there and work backwards…
It doesn’t contradict because “having something to strive for” and “being able to clear comfortably” are not the same thing. Havoc 40 should be like Savage Raiding in FFXIV. Everyone has the capability of clearing it, if they’re good enough, but the average player won’t be clearing it, even in a premade group.
To put it in perspective. I tried to get a premade together with a handful of friends. Despite our best efforts, the group never even cleared the first of four raids. We tried for almost two months, while me and one other were the only two getting clears in PUGs after raid day, the other 6 weren’t skilled enough to clear the easiest of the first 4 Savage Raids. We eventually disbanned, and 3 of us joined another raid group where we cleared the the first tier and then three of the second tier’s raids (7/8) before we got stuck on the 8th raid and I eventually quit playing for other reasons. There’s even another tier of raiding above Savage called Ultimate [Trial Name], and even fewer players can clear those fights due to the complexity of the mechanics and how tight the DPS checks are.
It’s perfectly fine, and normal, for there to be content the average player can’t clear. If they want to clear it, they must strive to be better (like @Reginald was saying) where they’re no longer “an average player.”
Edit: I should clarify, the other 6 members who “weren’t skilled enough,” were not bad players. They could clear every piece of content except Savage and Ultimate, and most were actually above average players for their respective classes. Savage was just another beast and even if they could do great in easier content, they mechanical requirement of Savage is what messed them up. There was too much to remember/pay attention to/react to between the mechanics, callouts, and their rotation.
Flag abuse from the same group as usual I see. Perish the thought somebody get frustrated and use extremely mild disparaging language for being talked around in circles continuously.
I don’t particularly disagree with any of that, especially that Fatshark has muddied the waters when their unclear and unfocused design. However I maintain the power curve is relatively short and the game is still like 70/30 difficulty levels as difficulty vs progression.
Wish we had stats on what % of players lie at each difficulty level. I feel like that would be very interesting data to see.
I haven’t seen this before but that quote in particular shows actual understanding, thought, and a design vision. Something for the progression enjoyers and something for the “I want a base game difficulty that’s actually challenging” enjoyers. And then the top sweats still get modded difficulties.
For those who may not know this though, the person the quote is attributed to, ratherdone, was the Fatshark lead combat designer and left the company some years ago. This may explain some of the fumbling. It does feel like the coherent vision is gone.
You are missing the part that casual players don’t want to put any effort. Or have no time.
Casual player doesn’t test weapons and builds that suit him, he doesn’t ask on reddit, discord or anywhere how to improve, he doesn’t watch or read guides.
The moment you started making any effort you’re not a casual anymore.
Because it should be an option, not the only way.
Why should I perform a self castration because the game can’t entertain me?
I grinded for all weapons for what? To not use it because devs can’t balance? What’s the reason to have itemization system then if it makes the game worse with gear progression? Leave weapons to be grey by default then.
Because it creates a room for achievements and rewards for effort.
Because it’s still a game. Games work because there are rules, and rules also mean restrictions. Either way let’s make a class with unlimited stamina or 5000 hp because pve game who cares.
And because people have no agency to gatekeep metaslaves from joining their lobbies.
And the most important that the game has no leverage to punish players besides the density, wich makes the game worse at being action game, pushes aoe and high cleave meta even more, polutes screen with 40k colors of flame, explosions, rainbow enemies.
The game needs a room to punish players for their mistakes on every level be it mechanical skill issues or being bad at decision making and so wasting ultimates and ammo when you shouldn’t have, rather just throwing 500 crushers and 100 trappers in attempt to knock someone.
Tides are skill based games, wich means you either should be a naturally born gamer or put some effort to be on the top.
And i’m sorry to tell that but people are not equal in their talents, be it singing or gaming. Some needs to put an effort more than others, it’ a natural order. Policing that and creating a gaming communism ruined too many games already.
And even then it’s not a universal thing, I’m considering myself as somewhat decent tide player, but i’m mediocre at soulsborn games or modern non-arena shooters. It is what it is.
Safespace cozy gardening games are 2 floors below.
I like this part a lot, it’s completely opposite for what they are doing in DT now, lol.
what’s the point in having a title when you invalidate and bismirch it with making it available to “everybody"?
neither casuals nor average players put in the works that it takes to “honestly” achieve said quality nor to they have the skills in the long run to warrant the result.
that’s why they’re called casuals in the first place.
don’t blame players for taking pride in their craft when putting a prestige to an achievement, an achievement that should remain exclusive to those showing exemplary skills and knowledge at the game.
neither op weapons or talents nor carry-teams should make such available to the “masses” in opinion.
so right now, carrying havoc 40 tag means absolutely nothing given the vast array of ways to more or less get it with little struggle.
should be the ones wearing that title, after all whats the point in an endless arms race to whose worth his salt when its constantly inflating to something else than what the game gives out as “highest level”
“oh your only skilled if you solo it while getting a lobotomy at the same time” - bullsht my ass
if weapons and talents weren’t miles apart from actual player skills, there’d be no doubt in the matter whatsoever.
it’s pretty unhealthy if every scrub clears every part of difficulty cause in the end its invalidating everyone and the locusts move on eventually anyways.
dedicated core players keep the lights on by purchasing cosmetics for years, not weeks.
so people don’t fall prey to the illusion about their actual skill, the only real currency in a multiplayer game.
you only want to test your mettle on equal ground, not some skewed metrics where numbers of certain weapons or talents compensate for lack or aim, movement or map knowledge.
force the best out of people to make em improve instead of feeding them into a lazy couch potato.
then there’s no point dealing with each other in the first place, coop isn’t a “I like you so much” play session, it’s “lets see what the dudes made off and if I can surpass him”
you think people be happy for someone else clearing every room for them?
why is it important that the hardest mode in the game stays prestigious for people actually showing their skills?
really now?
“why is it important the heavy weight title is impossible for the average human to obtain?”
people are not equal, never were, never will be.
it’s important to draw clear lines to seperate yourself from the faceless masses and show your talents.
be that sports, music, gaming or whatnot.
we aint members of a drone army.
When that long announcement blog speaks of progress, I think it’s clear from the context that the progress is through Havoc. And what sort of progress is that? The blog harps on difficulty, challenge, and developing player skill.
The problem seems to be that a number of players only care about increased crafting materials, or the cosmetics, or the titles. For them, the increased challenge is an impediment to be circumvented rather than overcome.
Many do appreciate the increased need for teamwork. But that’s become harder to come by, in any mode, in this powercrept DT.
They basically added seasonal ladder mode into the game that has no infrastructure and systems to support it.
Havoc balance should have been separated from the regular mode.
They could have made every season to be a testing field with buffs, nerfs, new mechanics. Those will end up being good goes core after Havoc season ends. Basically PoE leagues approach
Because difficulty ladder doesn’t fit session coop game. Twitch+deeds fusion mode that provides player’s agency would solve the problem of difficulty scaling without a need of manually crafted challenge.
So you can just crunch up enemies stats sliders and crunch up down players stats. You just need to set high enough values so it would be mathematically impossible to survive a horde. Plus add a pool of conditions you can turn on.
And leave such mode be a difficulty sandbox without balancing the game around it.
So devs focus on Havoc mainly. If a player doesn’t like current Havoc season balance changes he can stick to a normal mode that wasn’t affected.
and somehow palpatine ….. uhm rotten armor returned 
they really want to lure the op-stuff out one more time, hopefully before applying the final scissor 
“We buffed boom bringer again! Buy boom bringer DLC now and get a hive scum class for free”
back in my day we played games for fun, ha! not for the bling! now get off my lawn!
strawman
you’re gonna have to cope harder than that, the comments are publicly visible.
anyone reading the full thread can see you making stuff up as you go while I just shut you down at every turn because you kept missing the details as if you’ve never held a gun irl.
Saying “nuh uh, I win” isn’t you getting away with pretending to not having been shut down at every turn. See anyone can play your little game.
An ‘Average Player’ won’t get a sense of their own badassery, won’t feel like the hardest difficulty designed by the developers is within their reach. Everything else is for hardcore fanatics obsessed with the game, who spend more time and effort on it than on their studies or work
You’re right, the comments are publicly visible. Everyone can see our entire conversation and how you never shut me down.
The question: “In what way is shooting a gun pickpocketing?”
I said: “The same way smashing a head with a crowbar or shivving someone is pickpocketing. If you can justify a melee kill as a pickpocket, you can justify a gun kill in melee range as a pickpocket.”
Your rebuttle: “You can wiggle your index fingers when holding a knife. You need an index finger to fire the gun.” aka “but realism!”, and you didn’t shut me down.
My counterargument: “You’re able to justify the highly unrealistic melee pickpocket logic, but can’t make a concession for the equally unrealistic ‘gun in melee’ pickpocket?”
You respond: “Yes, because not all guns are fired onehanded.” Which, again, isn’t shutting me down at all.
I reply: “Try actually pulling a cell phone out of your pocket while holding two butter knives. (to prove how unrealistic it is), plus ‘if not all guns are fired one-handed’ is your limiting factor. Then 2h melee and dual wield melee should be restricted from Pickpocket as well since you never have a free hand.” Pointing out the massive flaws in your argument.
Your only rebuttle is “those melee weapons dpn’t have triggers.” Which is a massive tell that you’re losing ground in this argument if “does it have a trigger” is your only defense. Not exactly a “shutdown.”
I point this out by saying “2h guns don’t have 2 triggers. So one hand is technically free.” And call out with your obsession with realism when it suits you and ignoring realism when it doesn’t.
This is where your arguments truly fell apart as you go into “but recoil!” and trying to insult my ability to play the game as your defense.
So, the fact that you were unable to truly defend yourself against any of my arguments in this publicly viewable debate shows that you never “shut me down.” It really looks like you’re grasping at straws to try and defend your point of view rather than putting up a solid argument from step one.
At this point it’s clear you’re not going to debate in good faith. So, have a good day. I’d say this was fun, but it really wasn’t a good debate at all.
in conclusion you still can’t grasp the fact that pickpocket was intended to be done with melee and thus named as such, the name shows devs’ intention from the beginning, you were merely irrelevant from the beginning.
“but realism!” - straw man
Funny you downplay that supposed “only rebuttal” as if that wasn’t enough to shut down your whole attempt. Because it shows you still couldn’t get over the previous shut down. “but recoil” yeah you still couldn’t get over the fact that recoil wasn’t increased and therefore the gun wasn’t onehanded. This is when you realized your little attempt fell apart long ago.
Just goes to show you tried grasping at straws again and again yet ignores very obvious details that would have been noticed had you ever held a gun or even knife irl, resulting in you getting shut down at every turn.
get your mum’s purse slashed sometime. the game doesn’t need your brand of “balance”
sir, you missed this
you’re gonna have to cope harder than that, the comments are publicly visible.
anyone reading the full thread can see you making stuff up as you go while I just shut you down at every turn because you kept missing the details as if you’ve never held a gun irl.
Saying “nuh uh, I win” isn’t you getting away with pretending to not having been shut down at every turn. See anyone can play your little game.
So, the fact that you were unable to truly defend yourself against any of my point in this publicly viewable exchange shows that you never got away with pretending to not having been shut down. It really looks like you’re grasping at straws(case in point - you kept trying to deflect by making up new stuff just to get shut down again, rinse/repeat) to try and defend your point of view rather than putting up a solid argument from step one.
At this point it’s clear you were never capable of debating(this was never a debate, just you being educated on finer points of reality and what pickpocketing means). Funny you would mention “good faith” despite being caught out relying on strawmaning and straight up ignoring the subject/point as above. So, have a good day. I’d say this was fun, but it really wasn’t a debate at all.
Considering all of the above I welcome your next failed attempt at saving face. It shows to everyone how much delusion of grandeur you have when you try to call this a debate. (especially hilarious when you couldn’t even get the topic right)