Differing perspectives on balance stem directly from differences in gaming philosophy

[Harridas]

@alsozara

Approach 2: Difficulty levels as accessibility and a way to modify the experience to the level of challenge desired. In this system you should NOT have a significant portion of your player base at the highest difficulty level. Ideally here there is a level that is enjoyable for everyone. You would expect the spread of players across difficulties to form a nice bell curve if you’ve balanced your difficulty levels well.

@alsozara

I don’t know who needs to hear this, but Darktide falls into the second category of difficulty level design. That should be evident by the lack of character/gear progression between Auric and Havoc 40. Or the relative dearth of significant RPG elements generally (this ain’t no PoE, TBC I think that’s a good thing). For most their character will be kitted out and basically as strong as they can be before starting the Havoc climb, or at least certainly long before finishing it.

I believe that’s how the Tide games should be but I think VT2 and DT land inbetween the two approaches. Darktide in a sense is even worse than Vermintide 2 in this regard, which is impressive considering how terrible VT2’s hero power system is if you want to design difficulties like with Approach 2.

Vermintide 2 and Darktide both treat their difficulties as stepping stones for your progression in power while enticing the player with greater rewards for increased difficulty.

Summary: Unmodded Vermintide 2 at least has some optional difficulties with no added rewards on top of having a freely customizable modded realm

But at least in Vermintide 2 there was no reason to choose Cataclysm over Legend if you were primarily interested in equipment rewards for clearing those difficulties. There’s also twitch mode which gives you a slightly random but customizable difficulty increase with almost no additional reward. And Weaves was completely separated from Campaign. There’s nothing to be gained from playing Weaves that you could use for the other game modes other than a few portrait frames which people tend to care less for. So even on official realm Vermintide 2, there is at least still some difficulty levels that are simply “optional” in the sense that there’s less of a skinner box dynamic compared to the lower difficulties.
AND MODDED REALM EXISTS! PLAYERS CAN JUST MAKE THEIR OWN DIFFICULTIES WITH ZERO PROGRESSION INCENTIVES!

DARKTIDE on the other hand is even worse in this regard, the power you gain from leveling and upgrading equipment is extremely impactful (more than VT2!) and new players are starving to get materials, especially diamantine. In Darktide’s normal game mode, damnation would be the best place to farm plasteel & diamantine as those total rewards are the same between it and Auric. But… the game does not communicate this to the player, instead players see that Auric rewards even more experience and ordo dockets so naturally one would assume it also gives more materials. It does not.

And then there’s Havoc, very bad decision making if FS didn’t want players to treat it as a progressive game mode. It locks actual cosmetics that players desire behind Havoc 25 & grinding 50 or more Havoc games. It rewards players with useful materials they need while they’re still progressing their masteries and equipment sets, with the highest rank rewarding the most materials. It has zero player agency. And… as has been observed before, the general game balance has powercrept towards conforming around Havoc. That’s fùcking INSANE, is it not? Imagine Winds of Magic not having an athanor and Fatshark constantly powercreeping the entire game to conform to Weaves with every second content update. All of this happening while there’s zero alternative for players who want something else within said game.

PS. Fatshark used to be more communicative & cool about this.

@fs-bigras

Difficulties

• We want Recruit through to Legend to feel basically untouched, keeping the gameplay and choice of challenge that you’ve come to know and love. These difficulties should be supported by the progression, and rewards gained, helping you beat the challenges you will face in higher difficulties.
• With that said, we will be and have been adding new mechanics and changes to the overall gameplay both with the introduction of new enemies/weapons, system changes and tweaks. We hope these are as engaging to play as they have been interesting to build in our effort to keep improving.
• Cataclysm is something we wanted to add for those who like pain, this is not part of the progression and this is not something we think most should play. We had this in Vermintide and we wanted to pull it forward into Vermintide 2. To quote FS-Ratherdone “Cataclysm should be for people to play beyond the progression (as in, progression will help you reach and beat legend, but not Cata). Cata should require a well-functioning team. Cata should not be something you qp into and randomly clear. Cata should be HARD but since our mastery scale is what it is it’ll probably be too easy for the ultimate top tier of players. Cata should be something a freshly progressed and legend competent player sees, tries and dies horribly in, then grinds their skill and mastery of the game until they and clear it and has that Matrix-moment when they wake up and goes “I know kung-fu”. Yes, my analogies are on point! Basically, Cata should not be the most insane challenge ever concocted in the Vermintide experience (modded or not) but a peak challenge that requires you to master the game, co-play, clutching and all”.

Also let me know if I’m being redundant in any way, I’m a lil tired.