That’s not the point though.
Obviously you can make other builds work. Making another build work does not contradict the fact that volans doctrine is clearly the best talent to use.
Now you don’t have to pick it anymore as you always have it.
if you take Innovative Ammo Hoppers which is very viable on cata due to the high special spawn rate you still can take leading shots. So you will feel the missing leading shots on cata.
What? They’re removing Leading Shots mate.
I’m excited to see the changes to Pyro. That’s a class I’ve always wanted to love but could never get into - lack of “identity” was most of it, and the overcharge change especially strikes me as a great solution.
Bombardier Engineer sounds like a hoot. I’d given up on Gromril shot, so the buff there is good to see.
I think building trample into base Shield of Faith is a very fun change. I’m not a big fan of the melee-only careers, but the increased interactions with Fury and Shield of Faith look interesting.
Similarly, both changes to Necromancer strike me as making her more “necromancy.”
Looks like I may actually need to think, “Hmmm” when looking at Famished Flames and Lingering Flames now, which will be great.
I’ve been trying to make 1-H Axe/Throwing Axe work on the Slayer, despite the siren call of the Great Axe, so work on the 1 handers makes me happy. (OTOH, yesterday I got 2 sets of Veteran Dual Axes from one mission, so maybe Ranald is trying to tell me something …)
I guess I should mention I’ve come to really appreciate the 1-H Hammer/Mace and the Falchion sword as they are. I believe it’s only difficulty in damaging or staggering multiple foes at once that makes some of the 1 handers problematical. A buff to push is an interesting step in that direction.
I’m surprised at the Dual Dagger nerf … but pretty much only because I’d expect a Masterwork Pistol nerf first. I’ve abandoned MWP on the Ranger Vet because dealing with Monsters seemed boring. (In contrast, I tend to play at a near- panic with Dual Dagger Shade. Vanishing and trying to backstab a Chaos Spawn feels like a well-deserved relief.)
While I enjoying seeing several Javelins sticking out of a fallen Chaos Warrior’s head, I love any nerf. With that thing my 12 yo son becomes history’s greatest monster.
Wishlisting:
Great Sword buff?? I’ve found it fun on the Merc and Zealon from day one, especially in how it interacts with the Zealot’s stamina-replenishing Redemption Through Blood, but the general difficulty in dealing with armored foes and the, perhaps, over-ease of dealing with hordes never has me sticking with it for long. It seems like such an iconic weapon … I’d love to see something that helps make its Heavy attacks pay off and/or the push attacks less-costly or even faster, and gladly see the Light Attacks made less rewarding if a balancing nerf is needed.
Riposte buff? I think this is the coolest talent in the game, but I find it hard to justify taking over the others in the row. Foes die quite often after you block and then stab them in the head, without Riposte. I should actually make a constructive suggestion … How about this: In addition to what the talent already does, all the other characters shout “Praise Sigmar!” if the crit leads to a kill. 
Barge. Second coolest talent, but I won’t give up the DR of GFocus or OtPain for it. Much like the trample in Shield of Faith, perhaps it could be come a perk of the “Leap” state. Or just a perk.
Hey this all looks great, but while you’re at it can you plz fix it so in Chaos Wastes on Slayer, getting High Tally doesn’t break Adrenaline Surge?
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@BongoSkaggs i guess so
Ingenious ordance will replace leading shots, so there will be no more leading shots talent.
This just looks like an incentive to dump all of my exploits and shenanigans online and start making box farming tutorials for the masses
It would also be nice if Hungry Wind was made mutually exclusive with Cloak of Pain like it’s supposed to be. And Ironbark Thicket and Blackvenom Thicket should also be mutually exclusive like they are supposed to be as well.
Looking forward to this. I’m especially happy that there are attempts to improve the discrepancy in monster damage between classes.
In the spirit of constructive feedback: Would there be room to try additional changes in thr context of a beta or something? The changes to certain characters’ ults is a great first step, but I feel it might not be enough to tackle the entire problem. If it would stay at this, I fear it would “just” be a nerf to certain careers, and that’s it.
Additional changes I think would be worth a try:
- Not just nerf the power of certain ults, but also of certain weapons solely against monsters. Especially the masterwork pistol comes to mind.
- Nerf the effect of strenght potions against monsters specifically.
- And in combination to all this, reduce the health of monsters in general.
Changes like these together would mean that there isn’t as much discrepancy in fighting monsters between classes / loadouts, everyone would still need to actually fight / dodge / interact with monsters instead of deleting them, while still having some classes that are better than others at fighting them. But monsters would never be a completely repetitive slog for being huge damage sponges.
The armor type of Hookrats might need to be changed to infantry or berserker, possibly with a proportional hit points change to prevent strangeness, though…
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Christ I wish they would do Big Balance Betas again.
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Yeah this seems like the kind of thing you’d want to have a beta for.
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Since I have a few minutes. Among a lot of other things, let me start with the one I am mostly “curious” about.
Not sure why Warrior Priest sees any change at all. But well, let me make some assumptions of which I hope they are all wrong:
- Let me guess Shield of Faith will activate automatically when Righteous Fury is entered
- Let me guess Shield of Faith triggered by entering Righteous Fury is triggering the level 30 talents effect
- Let me also guess, Righteous Fury also increases while being downed.
Congratulations, we have now an auto-revive function. Even if Fury does not increase while downed, you have no a second Saltzpyre class which just jumps into a horde and elites without care because receiving damage does not much to him. In case of Zealot because he produces THP like there is no tomorrow and in case of WP because the damage he gets will be healed.
Seriously, I hope that taking damage grants sufficiently low amounts of Fury to be less exploitable (unlike Abandon) AND that Shield of Faith activated from Righteous Fury does NOT trigger the level 30 talents.
Was it not like that? Did the talent remove gaining Fury by enemies dying close by. I feel a bit dumb right now as I have never noticed that. Or is this in addition? So WP gains Fury by killing an enemy AND the same enemy dying? So twice the gain for enemies WP killed himself?
Someone snitched! I recon we give them a good ol’ kicking! 
LOL that would be so dumb, brokenly op and would also remove player agency. I hope that wont be the case!
Dual dagger nerf, Bounty Hunter nerf, and Grail Knigh nerf are very, very stupid.
Dual daggers are one of the hardest weapons in the game to use. With no cleave, only 2 shields by default, and small range, they require exceptional situational awareness. The only thing they stand out with is boss damage. They were a niche weapon to begin with - now all Shades will use the Sword and Dagger (which is actually OP), instead of just the overwhelming majority of them.
Bounty Hunter is THE worst class in the game since the Necro Scyhte has indirectly buffed Pyro. The Griffon Foot being OP is not a bounty Hunter issue, and the ult was incredibly situational. Stop watching youtube compilations and play the actual game god damnit, doing enough consecutive headshots to out-damage a Shade or even a RV is a one in a hundred occurrence. Other than this, BH still has no THP generation to speak of, still is dogshit in melee, and still isn’t a good enough sniper to justify any of this.
GK is powerful, as it should be in melee, but it isn’t broken, there was no reason to touch it.
On the other hand, Javelin nerf is probably not going ot be enough. WP Righteous Fury rework is most welcome, but you seem to have overbuffed him by a great deal
Necromancer being balanced as it came out is ridiculous. I guess I will continue to out-damage everyone by a magniute of 2 while having constant 80% damage reduction and constant distractions for the enemy so they don’t even attack me, because it’s fair and balanced.
Also, while the Croissont Staff nerf is justified, it’s a half-solution, all other staves range from outright unplayable to mediocre, and should receive buffs of varying degrees.
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Had a feeling I’d see you complaining about this change.
Overcharge penalties feel quite dated or at the very least don’t fit Pyro’s playstyle of maintaining high overcharge & critical mass for DPS buffs; the penalties outweigh the buffs.
If the penalties were reduced then I’d probably share your stance on Volans or some other risk to reward system but right now -25% attack speed, -15% dodge speed & -15% move speed is too extreme & unfun to play around.
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Slayer has Trophy Hunter (+30% damage)
Zealot has Fiery Faith (+30% power)
Now Grail Knight… You mean you’ll shorten the duration of Virtue of the Ideal, right?
Most of my complaints with the melee weapon balance is with the one-handed weapons. Some changes to them are needed, and more than just reducing push cost to 1 stamina. An increase to dodge speed and distance, headshot multiplier, and/or innate crit chance would help these weapons feel like the finesse tools they’re meant to be (applied on a per case basis; for example the one-handed hammer could use the dodge speed and distance and headshot multiplier buffs, but not crit chance). I look forward to the changes you propose for them in the near future.
Some other sore spots in my opinion:
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I want to call out the Moonfire Bow for being overnerfed and I hope it can make a bit of a return. It was too strong at launch for sure, but now it feels lackluster.
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Shade’s volley crossbow also needs some help in either ammo reserves or damage per shot because as is it feels very bad to use.
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Kruber and Salty’s greatswords need some love as well in my opinion. I understand the idea is that it’s a horde clearing specialized weapon with a weakness in the armor damage department, but I feel its strengths don’t make up for that weakness. It either needs to be even stronger at horde clear or be given a more reasonable way to deal with armor/single targets. It doesn’t need to be great at it, but it needs a viable option.
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I don’t have enough use with the pickaxe to suggest an idea to fix it I just know it didn’t feel great to use, unless it was as a second melee option for slayer and used only for the heavy attack.
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Kruber’s blunderbuss feel very weak in comparison to his other ranged choices. It can perform well in one huntsman build but it shouldn’t be relegated to that in my opinion.
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Throwing axes need to be easier to throw (arc less or fly faster) and/or need a damage buff. I would love if they could also be used in melee like the javelin can, including the lack of a block.
I’m not a fan of some of these changes presented but I want to at least try them first before going in depth on them.
Very glad we are getting another balance pass and look forward to future updates. Fingers crossed for another weapon pack! 
Edit: I forgot to mention I’d also like to see the weapon traits be given a look at. I don’t want swift slaying nerfed but it would be nice if the others would be competitive for the slot.
The Pyromancer and Engineer changes seem very neat, though i am a bit apprehensive about buffing warrior priest whom i´d already consider very damn strong without any outrageous skill requirements.
Battlewizard nerfs? At long last…but on Sienna’s note, i would not consider necro to be “somewhat balanced”. Career is very, very damn strong and can easily kill just about anything while remaining very safe at all times short of a chaos patrol even on cata.
Nerfing elf dual daggers? What the heck? They are honestly bad on their own, try fighting a cata horde with these and you´ll end up taking hits for days since you have no cleave, no stamina and the least possible range ontop. Some shades would use them for killing monsters but that is exactly the only thing they were good for, then they´d have javelins or a wizard they´d hug for horde clear. Possibly both.
Or they´d use SnD to have both good horde clear AND boss damage, or DS for great horde clear + decently good boss damage. Good passive use + ability use makes killing armor trivial.
While nerfs were warranted, this easily runs the risk of being too much and will just create a moonbow case 2, weapon is completely gimped and is hardly used. Cutting armor damage, stagger, a bit of cleave and monster damage would be overall sufficient without killing it. Remove half or more of the cleave? Weapon will likely not be any fun to use anymore, even against chaff hordes which was the main use anyhow since armor/shields absorbed the hits.
Sidenote, please give moonbow some kinda unique attack or overcharge thing, weapon is HORRIBLY dull to use now. And/or let waystalker actually use the ammo benefits on it. Is kinda the only weapon aside from the likely soon to be bad javelins that lets you confidently use “piercing shot” but having 4 shots before going empty feels really awkward on a specialist. Especially when the output feels so terribly unrewarding.
We really dont need a longbow version one, two and three!
This better not be all of it because it does nothing to fix the issues that something like 1handed axes or even the swords do, no cleave or simply extremely dull to use.
Lets get this straight.
No cleave = Useless against more than 3-4 enemies.
Useless against tiny group or bigger = Not at all worth using, too big weakness in a game where hordes can spawn ontop of you.
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i would say this is fine. It will still cleave vs hordes i bet.
For me the nerf on jav sounds pretty ok. You can still stagger chaos warrior and every elite, and it also has some cleave. There is nowhere mentioned it doesnt cleave at all, it was only reduced. And keep in mind on cata it hasnt cleaved that much for most of the time because every shielded slaverat blocked the jav cleave.