Critical Strikes should be "Applied" When it is Landed on the Target, Not Sart of the Attack

Depending on the details of the talent this “crit-on-hit” option probably won’t help you either.
If every 5th shot would crit and you miss the 5th. Well… the crit is gone.

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If it’s “On Hit” then that will be solved. Because it is “On”, “Hit”.

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That is easily solved by ‘arming’ every swing to be critical and then ‘spend’ the guaranteed crit and get back to normal again when you actually hit something.

So, you mean. ? amount of criticals are stacked, and be used when it actually hit the target? And gain it again by hit the enemy, right?

Only the guaranteed ones, because all other cases are covered by randomness already.

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I see, thank you.

Am I the only person who thinks there is a list of glaring issues as long as a bargepole that should be fixed long before this even gets added to some kind of tracker? Are we really discussing microseconds of difference causing a wasted crit where crits are largely RNG anyhow?

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No, you’re not. But since even minor bugfixes takes FS more than 2 years to do, we have plenty of time to discuss anything.

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For Talent choices that cause the 5th attack to always be a critical, this is a huge issue. Sometimes you trigger the talent, swing/shoot at air, and then it’s gone. For this situation, I would like the critical strikes and art to function as normal, BUT you essentially have 100% crit uptime until your next shot/swing lands on an actual target.

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I actually don’t have any problems with the way crits are implemented in V2 personally. It is, as already mentioned, very well suited to the gameplay as it currently is.

However, if you think about what critical hits actually are, namely body hits that hit an opponent’s weak point, then from a purely logical perspective the OP is of course completely right. But then you can also go one step further, and bring this whole critical hit chance principle into the year 2021.

As far as I’ve seen, there were mods that listed exactly where you hit an opponent, head, torso, arm (left, right), leg (left, right), back, etc… (no idea what the mod was called, but I had seen it once in some video, maybe the one or the other knows it).
So I assume that the game can also capture these hit zones. This was not the case in “old” games, which is why I think devs back then “invented” this principle of critical strikes in the first place.
At the moment we only have a weak point system that takes headshots into account (and hits into the controller on the Stormfiend), except for the Mauler’s armored head, but even here only headshots are “highlighted”.
So if you are thinking about changing this system, I would also change from a system based on percentages to a system based on individual skills in terms of critical hits. Furthermore, you could even think about something like destructible armor to reveal vulnerabilities (that’s already possible with shields… well somehow), but that would just be another step.

The feeling of performing these effective blows could still be kept, as a “Blessed Swing” or whatever you want to call it, as a weapon talent or character talent for example. I’m also just toying with ideas here to expand gameplay depth, but maybe it will open up other views. :thinking:

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I think the problem @MeleeSlaaneshFnE and I have is the fact that crits can happen even without hitting anything.

Most games your crits will not appear unless you hit something instead of just hitting the air.

I don’t understand at all why crits are applied when spamming attacks despite no enemies around.

How do you even explain being able to critically hit the air? Does the air have some sort of weak spot? :laughing:

Literally no other game I’ve ever played does this lol

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Obviously critical hits that don’t actually hit anything aren’t logical but I’m more interested in the gameplay implications of how it is now vs crit proccing on hit.

At the moment if your swing crits it will crit everything you cleave. If it were changed to proc on hitting an enemy, this could be done in a number of ways with different effects on gameplay.

It could be like it is now, where a crit will apply to everything you cleave, or it could be rolled individually for each enemy your attack hits. This latter case is the one that interests me because it would be similar to how proccing the likes of swift slaying worked in V1, where slower, higher cleave weapons were not necessarily at a disadvantage proccing traits since more enemies hit per swing meant more chances to proc. I like how this somewhat circumvents the issues we have in V2 where fast weapons are at a significant advantage in terms of triggering on crit effects (swift slaying uptime etc).

Of course that would still leave weapons that are both slow and low cleave struggling but as far as I can think right now there aren’t a heap of those.

Would such a wide sweeping rework of crit procs be practical or likely to happen at this late stage of the game? No, almost certainly not, but I do wonder if crits generally wouldn’t be a bit easier to balance across weapons this way. Admittedly crit chance itself would need to be tuned down considerably and I can see weapons like 1h axe suffering from such a system, so it’s probably not practical to balance either, but would love to hear others’ thoughts on the idea.

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Should be changed to only crit when hitting an enemy and only the first enemy hit if you have a weapon that cleaves multiple enemies.

This is typically the norm for how crits work in other games. Simple solution.

Why not? As I see it “Crit” (and coupled effects) have a huge disadvantageous effect on game balance. If Crit (and traits and properties accompanied by a crafting rework) is changed it could be done in one large sweeping change. Purely hypothetical though. I don’t see an issue with how crit is applied personally. But if the rest is done, they could also change how it is applied.

I think it depends on how you “perceive” the crit. Is it some lucky punch where you hit an enemy in his unknown weakpoint? Then it should be applied on hit. Is it some kind of “perfect form”, a hit where you made all the correct twists and motions within your body to get an extra fast or sharp slash? Then it should be applied on swing.

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What?

No other game allows you to crit if there is nothing around you. A critical hit means you hit an enemy’s weak spot, not critically hitting the air.

Crits should not even occur if no target was hit. Period.

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What is it with the limited thinking process? Take a stick and slash the air a hundred times. You will notice that the sound of your hit will differ from time to time. Congratulations, you just “critted” the air.

Also, what is with the non-sensical defense of “No other game”. No other game allows you to fight Skaven from a first person perspective. Yet, it is the reason why we are here. There is no law to dictate how Crits have to be applied O.o

In Baldur’s Gate for example enemies kinda “explode” if you kill them with a critical. Enemies don’t explode because you hit them in their weakpoint. They explode because you hit them extra-hard. It was not the hit itself but the swing before hand.

The reason why it is applied on hit most of the time is because most games don’t even have the issue of attacks potentially cleaving mutliple enemies. Actually, how do you know that no other game allows you to crit if nothing is around as long as you don’t check the game code or there is some kind of chat telling it? It is very much possible that it happens but the system just doesn’t tell you. And you dont notice it because the audio-visual effect is only applied on hitting something. In Vermintide you see it because of the first person gameplay and visual effects tied to the swing.

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Actually there is :laughing:

A critical hit (or crit ) is a chance that a successful attack will deal more damage than a normal blow.

Notable phrase: SUCCESSFUL ATTACK

In other words, you cannot crit with what you don’t hit.

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I like how you left part of that ‘rule’ out.

In many role-playing games and video games, a critical hit (or crit ) is a chance that a successful attack will deal more damage than a normal blow.

Notable phrase: IN MANY

Not all.

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And where have you this information from? Okay, let’s go to an example I actually now first hand. In DSA (The Black Eye) you roll for your attack. If you roll a “1” it will be critical. However, that is done before the enemy has a chance to dodge or block said hit. I could imagine it being the same for D&D. So yes, there are games (even if just Pen&Paper) where the critical part is applied to the attack/swing itself and not the contact with the enemy.

I left it out because most do adhere to that rule including all games I’ve played which is quite a lot.

Please explain to me why you like to complain about Vermintide’s endless RNG elements but seem to be fine with missing critical hits?

Seems pretty fishy to me :wink:

Not talking about tabletop games but modern video games.

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