Close too 500hrs played i want to give a feedback to RNG and the frustration it can cause and why i ~~keep~~ stopped playing

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
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Disclaimer:
Foremost i think this post will get critizised and thats ok, i wont defend my opinion/ feedback that much, but maybe explain further what i think or answer questions if they arent sarcastic, offending or rethorical trying to discredit this Feedback.
Its not a general discussion it’s a Feedback from me to FS to reconsider some things and yes i know they already do or have reconsidered their designed mechanics.
Sescond my english maybe isn’t completely bad, but i allways need and use google translator to express my thoughts and maybe i sometimes phrase something in a way that sounds bad or can be misunderstood, i apologize in andvance.

TL;DR:
The best player retention is a good gameloop, not progression!
That is the cause people played VT’s and other games ad nauseam afaik - didnt play it myself, but you can read it more often.
That is the main cause some old FPS, many TBS, RTS, 4X and sandbox games get still played for hunderts or thousands of hours.
Their new iterations allmost all added some progression systems to unlock cosmetics, have MTX shops and alike to earn the Developers and Publishers more money and i dont want to criticise that in general.
I got already called a whale, but i’m really not, at least not what i think a whale is, a rich person spending hunderts of euros for gaming.
This i cannot and do not, but i’m willing and spending some bucks if i can afford it and like what i see and believe or hope to support the Studio and Developer not only to get rich themself, but also to maintain, fix and improve their game and develop new good games.
It’s 2023 and not 1990 and i got that as i’m more or less an oldsql Gamer, started in the CPC464, C64 era with green Monitors and Datasettes attached to your keyboard, had no mouse, but arrow keys :smiley:

In Detail:
I read a comment that said what i wrote 2 days before in another thread in the length of an essay in just three sentences - admirable :smiley:

I want to rephrase it a little and start with “I dont bother with progression” that much and as far as i’m able too, because the systems we have affect me also!

This said i’m starting to be ok with it in general as progression or crafting and getting BiS gear is really not the core game of Darktide even if it for some is.
And i see you want to stretch the time for those players who foremost want or play to progress and get BiS Gear.
It’s not that i dont want it, it’s not that like i said the mechanics dont affect me, but the main reason i play this game is not that. The main reason is because it is fun to purge heretics!
I played the Chivalry games for thousands of hours and yes Chiv2 has progression to unlock cosmetics also, but i never cared for it that much.
But ofc when you put the effort into it to have that nice Armor or Sword Skin at the end you feel good, rewarded and show it off.
But you keep playing although there is nothing to achieve anymore other than having fun.
They recently added a BP and Seasons, i haven’t played much since then, but i play chivalry since the Age of Chivalry HL2 mod and thats 15 years already.
I do breaks sometimes for month or even a year or two, but i come back everytime like i come back to several TBS games or FPS and their new iterations and they mostly never get old really.

I can shrug your RNG based systems off mostly and just have fun playing the core game and purge heretics, but as you can see all the debates and arguing the player loss and bad reviews, the fuss about the release and state of the game and all that affects me too and everyone else.
Some things you cannot run away from completeley, because i’m/ we are human and not a machines and they are so frustrating and sadly also addicting.
But i have overcome addictions in my life more than once and not only regarding games, but also more serious ones.
I know i’m sensible to some of these psychological tricks, many are and sadly some dont get it and have the courage to admit it, reflect themself and the power to get over it, controll it etc.
You are not responsible for them, everyone is responsible for himself, but i ask you to reconsider your decisions nevertheless.

I want to end with:
Fatshark your freaking CORE GAME is good, very good, you can rely on that mostly!!!
Yes you really can and for sure need improve netcode, servers, balance combat, classes, weapons
over time, but your core game is all fine and fun to play!!!

You can have progression, you can have RNG if you feel the need to have that in 2023 to create some more player retention and earn more money and all that.
Many of us wouldn’t need it, but ok if you need to do that, do it, but then dont overstress it!!!

It’s so frustrating that it drives players away in droves and even hardcore fans like me are affeced in a way that it makes us play less - and that is maybe good for us, but not for you :smiley:

You have to find a middleground, a sweet spot and this sweet spot is miles ahead in the players direction to give them more agency what they can do to progress and how they dont get frustrated 9/10 times.
Even 50/50 would be too rough and frustrating, it should be more like 7/10 times you are lucky and some times you can have bad luck to keep it spicy - ok?!

Do it for shops, boxes, consecrating and refining!!! ASAP!!!

And give us earn and re-blessing and if you consider to add some RNG to these two processes to make them possibly fail “go to hell” :smiley:

sincerly Ras Moti

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Totally agree that the gameplay itself is definitely the most important.
However, i am certain that many players will stay longer (and are more likely to return after a break), if a good progression system is in place as well.

If playing a game makes you happy, you are likely to keep playing for a while. Being rewarded for your performance, upgrading your gear and being able to look at „your stuff“ that you earned… all these things create positive emotions in the player.
Even if you do not really care all that much about progression, a good progression system is still very likely to make you look at your stuff and think „Sweet. I earned all this.“ or „This is my chainsword. I has been with me since i did my first Malice mission. Now it has become a powerhouse.“.
Of course, a progression system that is badly made, will cause the exact opposite reaction.

Some people might play only for the gameplay.
For them, progression might be irrelevant, or it can be something additional to do. Either way, if they play just for the fun gameplay, the progression still happens anyway and they get rewarded for doing what they would do anyway.

Some people might only play for the feeling that they get rewarded for playing, or until they have „completed“ the game.
A good progression system can keep these players engaged for longer and make them return, when ever new weapons are released.
Maybe they play longer because of the progression, and then stay for the gameplay.

Some people might play for both, and once they „finish“ the progression, they will still happily play the game, because they can now use what ever stuff they want, since they have it all, and they get happy every time they look at their arsenal of earned perfection.

So overall, i think that a good progression system, additional to the good core gameplay, is a great thing with no downsides.
However, a bad progression system is likely worse, than having no progression at all, and can drive away players from at least 2 of the above categories.
Having significant RNG in progression, often makes people unhappy (for a good reason).
For progression in a game like Darktide, skill and dedication should beat luck every single time. Nobody likes wasting their time.

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I would still be playing if there wasn’t no agency handed to me whatsoever.

Ignoring the crafting and progression for a minute. I can’t select what I want to play. I can’t select what modifiers I want on what I want to play and on top of that, there are 5 maps. In which I simply come and go from/to different directions.

The gameplay is good, barring some absolutely horrible balancing and polishing (melee impact is nil compared to Vermintide 2) but even with that, there is not enough variety in terms of content.

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Gameloop is what makes people play. Progression is what KEEPS them playing. Retention requires good progression. Good core gameplay allowed darktide to peak at 107k on steam charts in the first place, but bad progression is what dropped it to 7k within 3 months (partly, among a host of other issues).

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Even if you dont wish to debate it here, I dont think monetization mechanisms such as microtransactions, premium currencies packs, season passes and gatchas can be separated from RNG and grind. These things are very intertwined, and obviously not exclusive to Fatshark.

Even so:

I don’t play for rewards/achievements, even if these are always nice to have. Core gameplay loop is indeed very strong and rewarding enough to keep me engaged for hundreds of hours.

To keep it fresh on the long run, I need to test new things. It is not even about min-maxing, more like trying new builds, new ways to play, including equipment with relevant or fun blessings. Right now, this is indeed made harder by RNG and lack of crafting system / materials.

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I agree with your post 100%
And the quote is a good statement!

Fully agree in that top!

It’s sad, but also true.
I really hope FS can turn this around.
And as someone who didnt play L4D or the Vermintide games much to say something viable about it, i can understand that many longtime tides games players are very sceptical.

I really hope they have lots to come in the Future.
Community is full of good ideas and the funds and the talent to code should be there at FS.
Lets hope Management let artists do what they are able to do and stop intervening and beeing greedy so much.

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So i want to say i’m done with DT and the cause is something personal, but all the things i said above and lot’s of other players criticize - RNG in almost every aspect of the game is so frustrating on top that i reached a point i dint have fun anymore and i wont do the last 5 missions for my active character for the weekly 25 missions contract today.
Zero motivation, although the game itself would be still fun to me.
But its the same problem i had with VT1 .

The biggest part is my personal way to play and enjoy games what i cannot do with how DT works in many aspects from coop to RNG and how the playerbase plays the game.

I don’t like to play on Discord with premade groups.
It’s personal preference to have varied teams. I dont blame FS or the Game, this is how online games mostly work today, but i dont like it!
To me this gets boring quickly, because the team wont change and is the same allways.
I therefore enjoyed PUGS with different setups and changing players, but the majority of playerbase is rushing only and leaves resources behind or is too often too bad for Heresy or Damnation difficulty.

5 Missions in a row failed, because of people not sticking together, not waiting for players looking for resources/ books or are just not skilled enough to play Heresy or Damnation.
To overcome that i’d need go on a discord and play premade, but like i said, that is not what i like or have fun with for the reasons i mentioned.

I could adapt and only play for the combat, ignore resources and crafting, itemization and progression, but then there is still the problem of having most pugs players not good enough to play heresy ordamnation and missions fail for odd reasons, mostly rushing, missing awareness.
Maybe it’s just me beeing to old.
If i see people spam dodge-slides or do silly things in elevators i too often feel i’m playing with some postpubescece jerks and i’m sorry, but although i’m some years too young to be a boomer, but i cannot laugh anymore.
Progression done in the worsed imaginable way and still unfinished plus the playerbase playing in a way in cannot enjoy and the only way to circumvent it is also not enjoyable for me is the last nail in the coffin.
Its like it was with VT1 for me, RNG and people rushing i couldn’t have fun.
On top i know the community wants things i wouldnt like and make it even more bad for me personally.
But at least i got my money worth on hours and had some fun purging heretics.

Thanks FS, i had some fun, but overall you cannot convince me to play further.

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Sounds like a burnout. You play too much and that is the reason you can’t enjoy the simple things like spamming weapon swap in elevators or 360 degree sliding.

Nah, you’re just on tilt. Have a good long break, you’ll be fine.

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i never like dstuff like that, from the first minute :smiley:
Thing is i dont know if i come back and get hooked again, very few games can do that.
When i’m done, i’m done.
All fine, i had fun and overall it’s not a bad game, but to keep me playing there would need to change not only some things but also players and that i’d guess wont happen.
And thats also fine, like i said i wasnt a L4D or VT or any of that genre games player and it’s WH40k what made me enjoy it mostly.
Most others things just arent for me that much.

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