Chaos Wastes Thread

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 General Discussion
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So, Chaos Wastes used to be in my opinion some of if not the most enjoyable content in V2 but something happened along the way that made it agressively anti fun. To preface this, I think most of the added content is conceptually good, marked bosses can be enjoyable and Belekor isn’t awful on paper.

The real issue is that we added significantly more challenging content, but drastically nerfed potential player power. Boons feel insignificant or financially unviable pick up options, and most player power potential is tied to weapons, even more than before, since strong traits like Asuryans Wrath and Chain Lightning are now attached to weapons you may never see.

I think righting the ship is fairly easy and other rogue like games have given us a pretty susbtainal framework to base future CW changes on. For starters I have three simple suggestions that would greatly improve the user experience with Cw, without needing drastic balance overhauls.

  1. There should be minor permament progression tied to player power. Accomplishing a number of completed runs or finishing challenges inside of runs, should provide some bonuses to make later runs less challenging, such as increased coin aqquisition, starting the map with 1-3 random boons, starting future runs with green upgrade ect.

  2. Boon shrines should function similar to trial shrines, giving multiple options so that you arent given either a useless boon or one that breaks your build seemingly more often than not. Currently due to the cost of boons (and more importantly the cost of red upgrades) Boon shrines are generally ignored unless your group manages to couple a fortune shrine into a +pilgrims coin map.

  3. The economy is devestating at the moment, two red weapons costs 1000 coins, which is about a runs worth assuming you get poor rng, this is further exaserbated by players potentially dying or forcing situations were players are unable to pick up coins in order to survive. Of course not everything can go perfectly and losing out on stuff is part of the potential challenge, but as it stands currently a perfect run is basicaly required to even hit adventure mode levels of power, while fighting significantly harder content.

Ultimatly CW right now presents players with a series of levels they are supposed to complete without core stats that can make or break builds, having functionally 0 crit chance baseline on Necro for example removes her entire build utility. Rogue likes always survive off of those “blessed by ranald runs” I agree power needed to be toned down from launch, but by removing the power fantasy entierly 9/10 runs become a painful slog.

I would love to hear added feedback here, V2 is still one of my favorite games and the randomness CW provides is very appealing a few 1000 hours in, however I very quickly feel fatigued playing this game mode, and would love some QoL improvements to make it the somewhat causal beer and pretzle experince it should be.

2 Likes
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Fatshark can add to Chaos Wastes if they want. And I think they said that they have plans for all their modes (including Weaves?).

Anyway, the initial form of the Chaos Wastes has been a boring, unfun mode which always played out the same. On latest second or third map, one of the players got one of the god boons which single handedly propelled that player to a masturbator, LMB everything into oblivion. It was unengaging and completely unfun.

The Grudge Marks and Be’Lakor update did improve the Chaos Wastes tremendously and made it a lot more fun and interesting then it initially was. While players can still get obscenely strong, it is no longer tied to acquisition of a single boon. Embracing the Chaos has been more rewarded, instead of the boring min-maxing approach which has been the best way before. In addition, the economy has been improved to the released version.

Power levels are feeling quite good with players reaching the power of adventure map around 2nd and 3rd map and only getting stronger further down the line. Though enemy Chaos is also increasing.

As said, the updates made the mode a lot more fun. Though it is still plagued by the same bs as adventure mode with some things standing out to much like the unfun unlimited cleave crit play of Necro or the obsession of FS to add more and more bombs to the game. Hopefully, they can add more boons to the mode as long as they stay true to the current existing fun philosophy.

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I dont see that happening ever, 3rd map typcially is still green / blue weapon shrines, so you’re still going to be at a power deficet and most of the boons are niche or situational, I really only reach adventure mode levels of power on the last or second to last map.

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With blue weapons, the heroes have 550 power which is 100 short from the adventure mode. Even if we assume that they have one green and one blue then it is 525 which is 125 short from adventure mode. In percentage this is roughly 18 to 24 % depending on scenario (I disregard the scenario of having one orange from map 3). There are a few boons which alone bridge that gap.

Also, after the second map people have 2 map completion bonuses which negates the missing properties and have roughly around six boons, maybe more. As said, one or two boons are enough to compensate the power gap and another one or two boons negate missing traits. Overall, you will equal adventure mode. Even if you are constantly unlucky and don’t get power-related and other “offense” boons, you will end up with a lot of utility like several forms of healing or increased career skill regeneration.

This is simple math. The only way not getting equal to adventure mode at that point is min-maxing the mode by avoiding random boon shrines and temper shrines. And then wait for map shrines or red anvils to spend their coins, they could have spent before. Though, this would eventually lead to a miserable experience for 80 % of the run. However, I doubt anyone is still trying to do this because of some odd control fetish in order to avoid random boons.

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two properties from neck, 2 from trinket, 2 from charm. So you would still be behind a little, discounting weapons entierly. You are also down, trait from neck, trait from charm, and trait from trinket.

So, end of the 2nd map, you would be down 2 properties and 3 traits, before factoring weapons in at all.

This doesn’t sound like simple math at all. Additionally, there was no prior mention of boons being specifically for offense, although power is directly tied to damage, cleave, and stagger making 120 a massive desparity… Im not seeing the inherent value you are putting on random boons, many are negatives, sidegrades, or situational at best.

1 Like
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Chaos Wastes has a few problems/restrictions that plays into some of the problems you mentioned. The devs defined Chaos Wastes as a rogue-lite inspired game mode, but it lacks some of the more substantial features often seen in one. We do not see things like:

  1. Save and Quit (Since a single run can take a long time)

If anything happens during a run, the entire thing is lost. Nothing is saved and there are no checkpoints. So if I disconnected or crashed, I might lose 45 minutes (as an example) or more of my time and gain literally nothing from it. So why can’t I rejoin or why is a game lost?

  • Steam has issues not showing recent players to try and rejoin on.
  • Steam going down every Tuesday.
  • I am the host and the game crashed.
  • I am the host and had a connection issue with Steam/servers.
  • I try to rejoin a friend but the game/connection is bugged and the connection won’t go through.
  • Someone else joined while I was attempting to rejoin

Because the run can last so long, the opportunity for problems to arise is significantly greater and more impactful than a typical Adventure Mode run.

  1. Carry-over progression/Unlocks tied into gameplay

The closest thing to carry-over progression that exists is 25% of your coins are applied to your next run, up to 200 coins. That is more of a “piggy bank” and not progression though. Essentially, there is no carry-over progression and nothing to unlock/upgrade for future runs that would help make those runs easier and more fulfilling compared to prior runs.

Having some kind of progression would really help with the lack of reliability with the economy, a dictating factor if you gain power or not. There are times when you scrounge every corner of the map for coins and end up with barely enough for a couple boons. Going into a shop saying “Look at all this cool stuff I can’t buy” is a terrible experience that a progression/unlock system might help alleviate.

  1. Longer runs

Currently, a run is 4 maps (+2 shops) + the arena. Even though it can take a long time to complete all of that, the flow of progression is rather condensed. Part of that is tied into the weapons with traits not appearing until the last map or two, so the peak of your potential power is extremely short lived. The last map, the arena, has nothing in it to gain so players just have 4 maps to “power up”. This “powering up” would feel more significant if the player was not already weakened out the gate by having their gear stripped of power, properties, and traits.
What this means is that in order for you to get to the baseline of where you were normally, you have to play about 3-4 maps. The logic is that you will likely reach a similar “power” after that, through acquiring boons or weapon upgrades, even if your luck is terrible and you need to skip chests of trials.

Because of the condensed run setup and powering down, the first 1-3 maps can feel really bad as a player. This is especially the case when the chance to get the more powerful traits are tied into weapons you can’t access until around the fourth map (Assuming you do not get horrible traits like Heroic Intervention or Inspirational Shot).

Having longer runs (more maps) would help alleviate some of the problems by giving players more time to power up and enjoy that power. This would only be particularly viable as a design though if the points from #1 were addressed.

There are numerous other things that could be addressed, but it is overall an unreliable and rocky gameplay experience. There is no significant reason to play Chaos Wastes over Adventure Mode. Adventure Mode offers a smoother and more consistent gameplay experience with a higher rate of reward.

If Chaos Wastes reliably delivered on the rogue-lite experience and did not feel worse the higher the difficulty you choose (to the point of slapping enemies with pool noodles), then it would a much better option for players to choose.

3 Likes
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the seemingly reduced coin acquisition moving to higher difficulties also feels abysmal, to Adelion’s credit, I played around on other difficulties outside of Cata and finished a champion run with 2000 coins, vs the numerous Cata runs we had where we struggled to cross 700 total. Nothing changed in the level of exploration, this feels like either an oversight or bad design.

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Explosion and lightning definitely needed to be nerfed from this planet for giving donkey levels of power with just 1 lucky roll, but there is barely anything that you can combine now to make those stupidly good builds if stars align.
It was honestly my biggest issue with it and not nessecarily the power you got from explo/lightning. You hit that explosion boon on engineer on the first map and you could already tell the run was practically over.
If explosion came from say 3 boon combination i would not have cared so much.

Last time i played the meta definitely felt like upgrade weapons asap and if you got extra then maybe get few boonies from the guaranteed spots. The rng shrines needing rework i can definitely agree on.

In general i think there needs to be more boons and more choices or say corrupted boons or other hilarious things that can make you strong, but also potentially weaker.

It might also be just interesting to start with at least something before you even hit the first map, say a dice roll between 2-3 boons or weapons at the start so you got some idea what to potentially aim for.

Also

100% this, i always felt like the run was kinda over when i finally have something functional going on. I would not even be against having some sort of endless type run with party of buddies.

1 Like