Brace of Pistols is under-powered - An explanation and fix

First and foremost, I know you guys get enough mindless claimants screaming that X is game breakingly OP and Y is useless without actually providing feedback. But, as a beta tester I still believe it’s part of my role to improve the game I thoroughly enjoy any way possible even after its released.

Which is why I have actually taken it upon myself to sit down and do some testing. I have compared the brace of pistols and the repeater pistol- the latter being the fan favourite which seems in a really balanced state currently. The reason I did this is because I want to enjoy using the brace of pistols, but I feel it always lets me and my teammates down.

I’ll try to keep it short and sweet and only include things I believe are relevant or useful to reference:

Testing was done on champion with neutral or unnaffecting talents and the inclusion of the Blessed shots buff.
Both test pistols have similar power ratings.

Brace of pistols is sitting at 266
Repeater pistol is sitting at 265

Now there are obvious issues between their ease of use or functionality, the repeater pistol quite clearly wins on this side of things. As its design makes it easier to manage when tackling hordes and when focusing a special. A higher rate of fire, higher ammo count, less recoil, less movement hindrance, the need to only aim once when right clicking and not continuously like brace of pistols all lend a hand in this.

Yet still, what I have found is that when both of them output the same value over time, or in a burst, there are considerable discrepancies.

When it comes down to the numbers that are there when you need them, the brace of pistols is simply lacking.
In order for the brace of pistols to equal the the strength of a repeater pistol’s alt fire under the influence of blessed shots you would need to fire 5 bullets and use 16.7% of its total ammo count whilst maintaining on target chest shots for the duration of those shots.

However, as stated the repeater pistol does this much quicker and it only needs to fire once on target, then we calculate that it will only use 10.7% of its total ammo count.

Now, taking the Prize bounty talent throws this even further out of whack. As a repeater pistol gets a free right click and can immediately right click again for some incredible burst using half the normal ammunition cost.
On the other side of the coin… the Bop saves one ammunition.

Now this is the same if you were to calculate realistic boss fights, the brace of pistols has less total damage with full ammunition than the repeater does. Even killing a chaos warrior is hard work with the brace of pistols, You can literally spool every bullet you have into it and it will still walk on like nothing happened. Where-as a reasonably placed right click with the repeater pistol will leave it hanging by a thread and a well placed right click will destroy it.

_In hordes most of the brace of pistols damage is wasted as it is overkill. Thus it is considerably less effective there, also. _

The long and short of it being that the brace of pistols simply doesn’t matter where it needs to and thus needs some compensation to boost it into viability.

How do we go about that? A slight rework.

20% ammo capacity increase.

Reduce the damage fall off slightly to adjust its effective range.
I in no means want the Bop to be overpowered, which is why I think it should still have a more close to mid range focus to allow other weapons to shine still. But as a comment mentioned I feel in those distances the damage falloff should be adjusted, with greater falloff toward the long range side.

Proper bullet penetration scaling with the new range falloff.
Something seems off about it as it is. To the point it’s almost not noticeable. I actually wrote this post assuming it didn’t exist and was instead locked in his class ability.
So up close it desperately needs more penetration, and that penetration should be reduced to be almost non existent after the mid range.
Adjusted chance to knockback enemies scaling with range if hit anywhere substantial if the damage isn’t enough to kill.

-Swap the primary and secondary- Reducing the movement speed penalty by about half in the process.
-Then alter the secondary fire: Victor still raises a second pistol when it is held, only now the crosshair is more accurate and damage fall-off is reduced. When you left click he fires them both simultaneously. Doubling the ammo cost, damage and penetration of a single shot whilst also scaling fully with Blessed Shots. After which he proceeds to pull out two more weapons if right click is still held, or one weapon if it was let go, with obvious timed delays accordingly.

Stylistic gratification - if the damage it is enough to kill, I would like to see more ragdolling to let us know that it was us. I want to see the severed little rat and chaos bodies fly and the bigger variants get knocked over as their arm or heads get blown off into the distance.

Sorted! All of the mechanics and animations are currently in the game and it should be straightforward to implement.
You will have successfully given the brace of pistols its identity back whilst improving what it lacked, as the left click will be costly and still require great micromanagement, awareness and positioning, but it will be considerably better than the left click of the repeater pistol in horde management. And the right click will now scale better with blessed shots and other effects, and improve its usability against specials and bosses. It will be quicker and cost less, but will still be nothing compared to the repeaters right click. Polar opposites.

(As a note, none of these changes affect the rapier’s tertiary fire.)

Thanks for reading. Hope you consider this as an option, as I would definitely go back to being a Victor main like I was in V1!

3 Likes

I used to think they suck and now they are all i use on BH. They delete hordes because they actually have good penetration and are powerful enough to deal with specials/armour. The only problem with brace of pistols is their ammo so they are pretty much only usable on BH. With scrounger and blessed shots you get more than enough ammo back if you keep mind to not go down to 0 ammo.
I really wouldn’t want to see the overbuffed and then consecutively nerfed. I really think they are in good spot other than the ammo problem. You will never be able to use them on WHC or Zealot and it’s a shame.

If they’re in a good spot with only 1 out of 3 career paths then they’re not in a good spot. :rofl:

7 Likes

not once in this long ‘short and sweet’ post have i read about the main feature about brace of pistols to me:

no reload.

it’s like the bow, you will always enjoy constant quickswap so you can weave it into your melee patterns and be incredibly responsive to taking out multiple threats without needing to pause for reloads. you can take on many specials and elites harassing your party without taking a breather, and that’s pretty important for some playstyles.

the bullets themselves do a lot of damage. so yea, i think brace of pistols is actually in a good place imo.

I think same as they work well with BH passive that reset after the the kill in close combat, they burst on bosses is just crazy if you know how to aim and you can easily one shot elites, specials with them while you have you passive ready to use. In the end it really just depends on your playstyle, since i tend to have most kills in melee from whole group when i am farming champ for fun i have the passive on all the time and i can easily manage my ammo trough scrounger. It is just people think something needs buff because they cant make something work doesnt mean it wont work in hands of somebody else.

Just because something works in the hand of a person doesn’t mean it is viable either.

10% use brace of pistols. 99.5% use the repeater. Those fake odds will always point to repeated being better.

I think you’ve something off with your numbers, there.

Funny is the weapon that most BH use in legendary diff is repeater crossbow cause the dmg fall of is better than on pistol and 3 burst bolt can still almost kill chaos warrior. So your point is wrong in so many ways.

I didnt play much viktor, lvled him to 30 and geared 600.
I always thought the brace of pistols is to counter patrols or a lot of stormvermins, meanwhile the repeater is to burst bosses / chaos warriors. Ive seen quite a few pistols on legend but i didnt pay much attention on how others use them.

1 Like

Should to nerf other BH ranged weapons.

Because it is completely different functionally.

I like the concept of having the secondary fire be a double shot. Synergizes better with BH, while not decreasing their dps vs bosses, but also gives them some fire rate limitations so that giving the BoP more ammo and penetration doesn’t make them overpowered against hordes.

BH has the hugest, biggest burst damage out of all the other classes. try a level 15+ BH with the free ammo shot talent, and a volley crossbow, and just play a few games. you’ll understand the power of it real quick.

oh, very important to have ‘Scrounger’ trait on your volley crossbow. you basically get a lot of ammo back almost every time you fire.

Yeah pretty much…

That is the problem with them. They need more than 20 shots. If they’re only good on the Bounty Hunter… you’ve screwed up somewhere.

I’d been saying since Beta, the base ammo for these needs to be at least 30. At present, because they have no charged shot, and not near the penetration the Volley Has… they’re not really up to snuff with the other options for Ranged Weapons.

Part of this is linked to the Rapier Alt-Fire nerf. Prior the Rapier Alt Fire covered up that deficiency. That was nerfed into uselessness in Beta due once again to the Bounty Hunter… and now its so insignificant its near worthless on the other jobs.

You can’t Nerf Witch Hunter Weapons… they’re a chain… that starts a chain reaction and hurts the other Career Paths which are already basically holding on by a thread.

If you think something on the Bounty Hunter needs nerfing you’re going to have to look at something other than the weapons.

Those affect ALL the Career paths… not just Bounty Hunter, and he’ll still be doing just fine after that. The Zealot and WH Captain however will end up getting hit hardest by it… not the BH.

brace of pistols has no reload time, that’s the balance

That’s not good enough Mook… if that were the case it would be balanced… but its 30 shots on the Volley… only 20 shots on the Brace. And the Volley has a charged shot firing 3 bolts at a time. Its basically able to one hit something in short order. The Brace can’t do that.

The only reason the Volley is that nasty on the Bounty Hunter is because he’s got 60 shots with it… and 40 shots on the Brace.

In V1 even though the weapons have basically the same characteristics… with the added ammo trait… the Brace had 73 shots, and the Volley had only 60. There was a reason for that. Both are fast firing. But the Volley can Fire shots even faster if you’re using charged shot. Its why it was so nasty on Ogres (And still is).

am i doing something wrong, i’ve been playing BH alot lately and my ammo for volley xbow is 15/30 and brace of pistol is 30/0

Oh I see they choked the ammo down on Bounty hunter since Beta too then. if its 30 now then its not much different. It used to be double ammo. And they used to be 40 shots. I haven’t played it since then.

I’d have to agree - the current BoP has a number of problems. On Recruit-Champion they work fine, but on Legend they are borderline unusable.

First of all, ammo management. Any meaningful kind of it is only possible on Bounty Hunter, and only if you pick the trait to regain 2 ammo on crit. You are basically forced to pick that ammo retention trait even though something like Hunter would be beautiful on the weapon.

Even then you have to be extremely careful with using your ammo - bursting something is out of the question. Potential damage becomes non-comparable to other ranged options.

Secondly - damage falloff. It’s too high, making even the single-shot crossbow a more desirable choice at mid distances. The fact of the matter is that the BoP only excels at close range where it has two competitors that are currently the meta. You won’t be able to utilize it long enough on Legend to see the results.

Finally, there isn’t enough penetration. You often can’t hit specials and elites behind dense Legend hordes, which really makes BoP only fashiontide-worthy on the top difficulty.

Honestly, @Fatshark_Hedge , you guys at Fatshark jumped the gun with implementing AgainPyromancer’s vision of the pistols without playtesting it thoroughly. The current state of the BoP is abysmal.

I know, I only played a few games with brace of pistols and repeater, all other games with volley xbow.
My point was comparing the 2 weapons and what theyre supposed to counter. Not career classes or how broken volley xbow is.

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