BBB Feedback: Kerillian's Spear and shield

Because the H1 stops on the first Elite, and it doesn’t have the Slam like other Shields.

I do love using it to pick them off in Hordes, but when there’s too many you can only Push spam or Push-Attack spam. The Slam of other Shield Weapons is more Powerful than a Push.

also, we need to ask ourselves, what this game is supposed to do (achieve), and what is in the lore about weaponry, fighting styles, and laws of physics (or the universe).

If its a warhammer game, then it should follow the logic of that world, so we get immersed in it. The game is about first person monster slaying, so the combat should feel real in the context of that universe.

And here’s an example (all those weapons are non-enchanted): if you’ll see a mace weapon being used gripping it from the other end, or halberds being wielded one handed (by normal human), or a sword that only has strikes with the flat side – it would be considered stupid by everyone, unfit for this game. Because its ridiculous from in-universe logic, and we have standards for authenticity.

Each has their own standards for authenticity. Like, i don’t see any problem about game’s sweeping attacks having ridiculous cleave (relative to real life), or pushing having unlimited cleave. It’s a design decision. But the first person attack animations, do they make sense from in-universe logic - this is really important to nail down properly, because it contributes into one of the key goals of the game - immersive first person monster slaying.

Well there would be a lot of actions/attacks that would seem ridiculous to us but would potentially make sense in a warhammer universe given that characters are essentially superhuman. Ultimately a lot of it is subjective and up to the developers (which will of course be tempered with community feedback)

What attack animations for example?

And as far as i know, Kruber (except Grail Knight) and Saltzpyre are not superhumans in lore.

its subjective from our points of view, but in there exists an objective quality - about accuracy to the lore, laws of physics applicable in that world, and HEMA (because the Empire is heavily inspired by late medieval - Renaissance period, and the weaponry of elves and dwarfs is vaguely inspired by medieval weaponry).

Woah that’s weird. Learn something new everyday. Fatshark really needs to give players more information about weapons. Not even sure how a new player would ever figure this out.

Wait do all weapons do this?

slapping attacks with spear, wielding a 2H hammer that would dislocate shoulders of normal people to swing, beheading units with a rapier swing, a seemingly infinite supply of pistols, rapid fire bows, being able to have any degree of accuracy with a bow or flintlock while moving and jumping.

Also all the characters are absolutely superhuman (maybe not literally but in terms of how powerful they are) given how much they achieve/survive. They’re a very significant cut above the standard soldier. Also Warhammer lore is filled with inconsistencies and retcons and a bunch of things that are just chopped and changed at GW’s whim.

I’m curious how far that goes beyond obvious things like wielding an axe upside down.

kinda, unless it’s a weapon that goes into a holding animation like flail or 2h elf sword

it goes all the way to the tiniest details. Something either does makes sense, or doesn’t according to in-universe logic and established rules of it. I’m not talking about Vermintide here. Yes, there can be found inconsistencies in warhammer lore pertaining to weapons, armor & combat - and thats objectively a flaw. But nonetheless warhammer is an established universe.

And then there’s the game. What the game is supposed to achieve? It doesn’t try to achieve fully realistic window to the warhammer world - it clearly wouldn’t be as fun, or balanced. But what it tries to do - is portray combat from first person perspective, in Warhammer world, with fun gameplay. And that requires sacrifices in authenticity to make it enjoyable and varied. One of those sacrifices i mentioned - its super cleave, infinite push cleave. But one thing you can’t sacrifice - is authentic looking attack animations. Be Vermintide a strategy - this thing wouldn’t be as important to be accurate.

only two of these are attack animations - slapping with the spear, and swiftbow. First one is viable strike irl (like a strike with a staff), second one is used by an elf (super agility) and the bow has low damage (low draw weight = easier to be fast).

Hammers are also big in lore, and thats in-universe inconsistency - because there’s nothing to indicate that people wielding them have x3-x4 times more strength, than normal humans in the world. Animations though look believable, imagine same animations but with properly sized hammer.

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I could justify the the spear shield attacks with that same logic, especially seeing as the elf spear is almost a sword-staff

could I have an example?

example of what?

you’re talking about spear sweep with one hand? The animation on its own is totally fine. I was questioning whether or not horizontal sweep into horizontal sweep with this is okay and upon further consideration, i agree with you.

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What would be the “tiny details” that would be important but also objectively measurable

just so I know if we’re on the same page/I’m not misinterpreting lol

There’s warhammer world where tiniest details exist (shown or told), or we extrapolate these tiny details from known rules/lore of warhammer world. Its objectively measurable how accurate something in a game is to that world.

Whats important and not important - can only be said in the context of the game, a product.

Important and objective examples ingame are:

longsword riposte - the sword position while you charge is a legit guard position that protects you, and the strike afterwards is a realistic transition from this stance.

halberd old moveset - a lot of 2-strike combos are a sweep into stab, or chop into stab (still exists). Heavy sweep -> Light stab. Heavy sweep -> Heavy stab. Light sweep -> Heavy stab. Its a very natural & effective 2 strike combo of halberd irl. Remember the video on techniques i shared? It had them, and there’s a second video with sparring, where its used prominently - first strike (sweep) to knock opponent weapon off, then stab him.
But after the patch, these are removed, and the heavy sweep is tightly chained to light sweep which is the thing i hate now.

1h mace (and 1h axe) - in Verm 1 they had straight vertical overhead animations, in Verm 2 they made to be going more from the shoulder - and when you do one after another you alternate between sides - it looks more realistic and effective, than in the 1st game.

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Fair enough

I do think those things need to take a backseat to gameplay though where necessary

They shouldn’t take backseat, not in this game. If they cant fit gameplay (with numbers tweaking) - ditch them, and replace with something else, so you can have both authenticity and gameplay.

In an ideal world, its a work for two classes of developers - animator and weapon designer:

fair enough but that doesn’t mean it will always happen or is necessarily what is best for the game (or the vision of the developer for that matter)

I don’t like this at all. The weapon is perfect now. Why do you need to do three light stabs in a row?? if you really need a third stab, then do 2 lights into a push attack. I don’t want it changed from where it is now. (handmaiden Main)

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Oh? Can I ask why you much prefer the current version? I made the changes to spear and shield so I’m curious for your thoughts on it :slight_smile:

I tend to avoid these discussions, as I personally don’t mind either version. Both have pros and cons and I just learn to adjust my use of the weapon accordingly to achieve the same final result.
But since @Incandescent asked, I’ll say this (my personal experience and opinion):

The original triple light stab combo: It was great for quick, precise hits against your opponent. Basically your heavy sweeps took care of the AoE damage/cc while light attacks were great for fast precision strikes (usually headshots) against a your opponent to finish it off. In short: heavy - AoE, light - single target.

The current third light sweep: It’s a great alternative for small-medium sized enemy group clears if you just don’t want to spam your large cleaves. Especially when combined with Shifting Seasons and occasional Asrai Alacrity, allowing for agile fast light cleaves while dodging around, giving an opportunity for more… agile playstyle.

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Personally especially with the massively increased attack speed after a push, going push into quick light attacks is a stagger machine against hordes while dodging circles around them and that just feels glorious and quick, like an elf should.

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It’s far better horde clear than jsut using the one heavy cancel technique. It also just feels better to use. I honestly can’t think of a situation where i would need to stab something 3 times in a row besides slave rat; and no matter where you’re hitting them that third time it’s going to die anyways; so it doesn’t need to ber super prescise. The combo of push stab into heavy heavy is still retained to deal with armour; so it’s perfect. It more accesible and easy to use thsi way rather than having to block cancel; and functions virtually the same. It’s jsut better, and feels better; and i don’t want it changed.

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