Balance Discussion - Everything Sienna

Sure, why not? There’s other characters than elf too.

I’ve played flaming flail on kruber (modded realm) and it was actually pretty bloody awesome

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These all seem
Horrible tbh. Like really bad. Especially talent 2. Gonna be way too difficult to use without blowing up.

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All 3 talents are pretty much useless. I’d honestly rather have the 5% attack speed.

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Talent 2 is a good idea. Talent 3 is currently and will remain useless. Talent 1 is pretty well useless as well unless you run thp on kill. In that case, you’re at a net loss for thp vs running cleave. Very bad. Overall, these talent changes are a massive nerf to one of the weakest classes in the game. Very odd decision.

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@Sleezy Said pretty much what I was thinking.

The Pyro suggestions look like a jumbled mess. Very little cohesion or synergy.

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I am not fixated on the level 10 talents. The rest of the talent tree is so overloaded with damage potential that I didn’t want to break it any further. Which is why I went with “Survivabilty” as theme for this row which shows in an increase in either damage reduction or dodge or just being able to vent safer. The trigger condition were mainly chosen NOT to overlap with Battle Wizard but they can easily be changed as well as the talents as well. But I stay with the point that even more offense power is neither recommanded nor needed.

The theme for the level 20 row is the overcharge bonuses where you can chose between Attack Speed, Power or Movement Speed. Not to interesting but it is a nice organic bonus and since the core of the career plays around overcharge (management) each talentt synergize pretty much with the talents in talent row 25 and 30.

The theme for the level 25 row is critical overcharge management, either how to play around it or why it is preferable. Each talent hereby opens up a different playstyle.
Talent 1 is hereby the melee build. After heating up and killing the first elite, you don’t have to manage heat anymore as it will not go down during that time. As long as you can keep killing elites, you will have your 30 % crit chance bonus and whatever you’ve chosen for the level 20 talents. New downside is that the melee build is finally a true melee build as all ways of removing overcharge are disabled, blocking you from using any ranged combat.
Talent 2 is the spam and burst damage build. If you get a special you can spam fire magic non-stop for 10 seconds. The criticism for blowing up potential is fair and I haven’t adressed it yet. I mainly toy with two ideas with one being blocked of using magic for 2 seconds after the buff stops or with an auto-swap to your melee weapon after the buff ends. Might be annoying for some people, but most of the community would get used to this over the course of one or two games. Getting out of overcharge afterwards can easily be performed by using the synergy with 20-2 which improves cooldown rate.
Talent 3 is the power build and is the most customizable of the three talents as the bonus it grants is identical to the properties you have chosen for the build. So it can mean a power increase of 20-40 %, or 10 % more attack and 5 % more movement speed or just even more crit chance. The possibilities here are endless. As it is such a huge buff the conditions are strict though with being at 95 % overcharge. The synergy with 20-2 allows here as well a faster natural cooldown as well as the regular use of magic at high overcharge levels. It could be discussed to be lowered to 90 % but any lower than that would be broken. It probably is already.

The level 30 talents are the career skill influecing talents. Talent 3 is just a filler so it is the most boring. Any ideas for something more interesting are welcome.
Talent 1 is the talent if you want to go towards ranged spam. Cast all your magic, vent by career skill and spam more while not losing all of your crit chance and level 20 bonuses. As such it works both with 25-3 if fast venting is needed and 25-2 if no special is close by. A more interesting synergy is given with talent 25-1 though. As 25-1 disables any form of overcharge cooldown it will also block the venting effect of the career skill talent. So you can heat up to 6 stacks, kill an elite in melee and use your career skill to add another 4 stacks reaching a grand total of 10 stacks, resulting in 50 % crit chance plus and either 25 % more power or movement speed or 20 % more attack speed.
Talent 2 similar to 25-3 is the most flexible as it changes with the properties you have chosen for the build. With the career skill counting both as melee as well as ranged hit it gets a lot of bonuses. One would be the ability to gain THP by kill or cleave (kill obviously works better). But it also gets the boni of both the melee and range weapon. So this is depending on properties 20 % more power vs something. You can also speed up the career skill animation by chosing attack speed as properties or even more crit chance if that is even necessary. It also synergizes well with all level 25 talents. For 25-1 and 25-2 it can function as trigger if you either need an aimbot skill to kill fast the special in the distance or if you want to get an easy “melee” kill. Most interesting synergy here is with 25-3 though as that talent doubles all your properties and 30-2 counts both melee and ranged properties leading to a power boost of somewhere between 80-120 % depending on enemy (I think 120 % is not possible due to possible power vs combinations and enemy limitations). It can also be used to trigger melee and ranged traits although there are very few which are triggered by hit. It would mainly be interesting for triggering Swift Slaying and Hunter at the same time.

So overall the suggested talent tree is more cohesive, thematic and offers far more and better synergies to what we have now. The level 20, 25 and 30 talents are combinable in any manner with each having their own advantage. Far more interesting and better what we currently have in terms of interesting gameplay. However, it would be in need of testing to check if the absurd power levels are difficult enough to manage or if it is completely broken. Main goal is to increase the diversity across the talent tree because the one build Pyromancer has is extremely powerful but there are few options besides that. So in summary, the talent changes are a massive buff to Pyromancer with more diversity.

This just removes the need to manage overheat while being a massive nerf to players who are competent enough to manage said overheat. It’s a 25% nerf off the top by making it impossible to upkeep hunter. It’s also a nerf because you can’t weave in ranged attacks without blowing up, assuming you’re maintaining the “buff.” Basically, it’s nice if you accidentally unbound your weapon swap key, but if that’s the case, maybe just go play GK. This doesn’t fit Pyro at all and is far worse than having no talent at all.

Yeah I see what you’re trying to do, but you’ll be at max heat after spamming and if you’re pressing any buttons when the buff dissipates it’s dead time. Without addressing that the talent is just far worse than current deathly. Maybe if it capped out at like 80 or 90% overheat.

The problem with 95% overheat is that means you’ve already triggered your overheat protection. So this buff only affects melee. Too many of your talents are based around making Pyro a melee-only character while removing volan’s doctrine.

Basically, you’re nerfing melee by 30% or so and then adding in talents to buff melee from that starting point while removing or seriously nerfing all ranged synergies. The only thing I would keep from any of these ideas are the level 20 talent ideas and the change to exhaust. Those were good.

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Yea, that is intentional design because right now the one build which works for Pyromancer is both melee and range superpowered all in one build. And that is the death sentence to any build diversity. Therefore, I removed the ranged component from the melee build. I understand that people don’t like that but otherwise you won’t get diversity into the talent tree. I think it would be helpful if you post the exact build you are thinking of that I can make a better comparison how large the power gap is. The situation with hunter might be solvable by changing the third career skill talent into a non-aimbotting small ranged fireballwith far shorter cooldown.

Well, I have adressed the problem now with the automated wapping sweapon which will avoid overheating to 100 %. However, capping at 90 % would work as well. It is an idea I have not considered.

You mean that casting at 95 % causes explosion? Are you absolutely sure about that? Because my experience with Unchained suggests different. But I don’t use any numeric UI which could show me the actual numbers. But as said, it could be lowered to 90 % if that is really the case. These numbers are not set in stone. And most of the suggested talents are there to give diversity. There is a melee-only build considered but it is not the only one.

Again, post the build and I can compare better, ideally with properties as well. Most of the talents are an outright upgrade to the current version with having far better synergies for ranged-focus builds and having good synergies for the melee build. If you can manage your overheat you can take use 25-3 which gives a lot of bonuses.

But I fear all this discussion is about is people being unwilling giving up on Volans Doctrine to create more build diversity. If that is the case then no Pyromancer rework will ever be possible.

I mean, you can totally rework pyro with volans doctrine still a thing in some capacity

Yes, which I did. It is still part of my suggestion but it is not anymore the winner takes it all talent which enhance everything for Pyromancer. It only enhances the melee build now. But it is still a thing in some capacity.

I’m 100% for removing volan’s and making Pyro a ranged powerhouse. However, removing volan’s and then trying to make Pyro a melee character with a constant 30% slow debuff sounds horrible. Edit: or a melee only character without slow. Also very bad design for a ranged character that has 10% ranged damage as a passive and a poor melee Arsenal.

Sienna as a whole could benefit from overcharge tweaks, possibly a rework.
Could probably do away with coaxed talent choices like Volans, Abandon & Bomb Balm.

Also, surprised to see so few if any talents playing off her high crit chance.

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1,x,1,1,2,2
1,x,1,3,2,2
1,x,1,1,1,2

All three of those builds are substantially better than any option available under your suggestions. Granted, depending on content you’re doing, whether they fix overheat bug, and whether you want to be more ranged or melee focused, the build strengths will vary.

But it is at best a third of the talents which are adressing the melee build. For all I care, I could live with removing the melee build completely. But suggesting this in the past has caused backlash. That is the only reason why I even adress it.

Ignoring the melee part of the suggested talent tree, the ranged options should be better.

Let’s go with the middle one. Let’s assume that you can reliably manage overcharge at 90 % and that is enough to trigger talent 25-3. Let’s assume we want to get as close to that build as possible and let’s assume the traits are identical. Also, let’s ignore level 5 and 15 talents as they are identical.

At max overcharge you have 15 % more attack speed and no other boni and mali aside from properties. You have given no properties which makes direct comparison a bit more difficult. Without Volans Doctrine I have to overcome - 25 % attack speed, - 15 % dodge range and - 15 % movement speed.
With talent 10-3 I overcompensate the dodge penalty. With talent 20-1 I get 12 % attack speed plus another + 10 % from properties if chosen Talent 25-3. Concerning movement speed I can also get another +5 %. As one property is used I can only get + 10 % power on Charm plus another + 20 % on the ranged weapon or + 10 % on the melee weapon. Remaining properties have to be adjusted by need. With the doubling effect you can still get + 60 % BCR and 4 Stamina. With this you can use the Trinket space for either more crit or 20 % cooldown reduction.
All in all, the comparison would be:

  • +15 % Attack Speed, THP on Career skill (on set-up now)
  • - 3 % Attack Speed, - 10 % Movement Speed, + 5 % Dodge Range, + 10-30 % Power vs, + 50 % Crit Power, + 10 % faster Career skill cooldown regeneration, Career Skill which generates less THP but is more powerful

So in summary, you will lose some mobility while you get an several bonuses on power/damage. DPS-wise this should be either equal or in favour or the power-build. The issue then starts on what you personally value. For you, I am halfway sure, it is the mobility. For me, mobility is not an issue, dodge is better and attack speed I rarely use (also consider that for melee the Swift Slaying values are missing on both numbers) so I don’t see issues there. In return I get a very damage-orientated melee and ranged build. But since we value different properties differently, we simply have to disagree here. The now-build is more mobile, the suggested build is more powerful with higher dps. For people who can not manage overcharge reliably there are other talents which make management easier.

On the bright side, I got an idea for the third level 30 talent which can be used to adress the melee build.

I am all for removing these talents. But not if people insist on making them passives or similar.

I’m definitely not asking for Abandon & Bomb Balm passives.
Just saying it could be beneficial and possibly be more reasonable for UC if overheat mechanics were changed in some way instead of implementing bandaid talents.

Lemme just drill something in your head
An extra 6% crit chance is not equivalent to -25% attack speed, -15% movement speed & -15% dodge speed.

You’re far too strung on risk vs reward and trying to implement it in poor ways.

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Yeah I disagree. The tree looks very bad for ranged imo. Again, losing volans is a pretty substantial ranged dps loss just to start with. Then also taking away bonded flame is going to kill your ability to spam. You also will be fully overcharged coming out of deathly windows which means even more venting required. The only way it would work at all is if the 20-2 talent is very powerful. In which case, it takes the place of volans as the mandatory talent for most builds.

Which is not what I am suggesting. I am one time suggesting no overcharge slowdown for melee builds, one time and time limited spam at max stacks (in contrast to whatever stack you have with the current talent) and one time a doubling of all your properties which equals 20 - 40 % more power among other buffs. And then there is the new passive for compensation of Volans which increases crit power by 50 %. The rewards at critical overcharge is substantial.

I don’t see why a bandaid would even be necessary. Unchained can be played with low risk at max overcharge even without Abandon and Bomb Balm. So i dont see the point of changing her overheat mechanics.

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