Are toughness and sprinting pointless? Help me figure it out,

I’m getting to the point I think toughness is a weird and ultimately fairly pointless mechanic at Malice+.

It doesn’t stop you being staggered or slowed by ranged fire.
It doesn’t stop you getting bleedthrough damage from Melee
It doesn’t stop you getting corruption damage.

Therefore all the cureos buffing toughness become a complete waste of a slot and you’re always better off getting +wounds or +% health.

I understand toughness regens, but it matters not if you’re 200 Toughness or 30 toughness if it doesn’t actually protect you from anything.
So what’s toughness for?

And sprinting is just a mechanic to make you use stamina as you enter melee - if you ever get there without being stunned by ranged fire.

So people who know the deep maths better than me, what’s the actual point of toughness?

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TBH the point of toughness seems to be ranged defense, and a ‘health’ resource that you manage similar to temp health from VT2.

They drastically missed the mark though. It seems they didn’t want it to be as strong as THP from VT2, but the one class that should be using it (zealot) has next to none while the one class that should be relying on it (vet) has so much. It’s darn useful on the vet, because of how much they have but on everyone else it’s next to useless.

I’ve been playing Vet and I swapped to +wounds and % health increase on curios instead of toughness buffs and lasted significantly longer, even playing with shotgun as a shock trooper, lobbing grenades, charging in and frontlining with Ogryns.

HP is all you need to buff I think as toughness is a little tissue paper shield over your body.

But yeah, they missed the mark completely. I think it’ll need a massive rework as it doesn’t effectively serve a purpose to mitigate damage OR offer support to either ranged or melee.

[edit] I suppose there might be a way to mix/max toughness and some feats to be able to mitigate far more damage by manipulating the maths and cheesing it. I remember playing a 1hp Monk in Guild Wars as damage was always rounded up, so getting 90% damage always left you with 1hp. very niche and utter cheese though

If you’re on 100 toughness or above you get 0 damage to health.

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I wholeheartedly agree that sprinting is practically useless, enemies have a lock on for their attacks and can catch up to while sprinting while the enemy is preparing swings ands till hit you. They will also “slide-step” and move a big distance to make sure the lock on attack hits too.
Sprinting needs a much larger speed increase than it offers and to break any locked on attacks like that.

I’ve tried to many times to use sprint to make some distance or get back to a group and still just get hit in the back and have my speed become practically 0 due to the hits taken, it is largely pointless as it currently stands.

Toughness is somewhat more nuanced, I definitely think that it needs to play more of a role in preventing most soft forms of CC (light stagger/slow/snares) affecting you while at medium to high toughness.
Right now ranged units can basically dink you and completely stop preacher charging, basic sprinting, and any other gap closers regardless of your toughness level and that feels bad.
I’ve literally not been able to dodge or move 2 feet to cover while at medium toughness due to the stunlock being applied constantly by ranged which is silly as it basically punishes you for TRYING to do the right thing and get into cover, but you quite literally become unable to do so. It becomes a lose/lose situation.

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nope it doesnt. sliding under it can
yes and no ill come back
no you need corruption resistance for that , health will help a bit.

toughness blocks all ranged damage if there is enough of it to absorb the blows, like if your being shot for 20 and have 100 tough 5 hits will be absorbed doing no damage.

melee though gets worse the les you have it blocks the percent of damage - to the percent of your toughness you have

in this example you have 150 toughness and are being attacked in melee by an enemy hitting you for 30. you have 100 health

first blow its your full 100% 150 value toughness , so all 30 is absorbed you take 30 toughness damage

you are now at 120 tough 80% of max and 100 Health

second blow hits you . 80% is absorbed by toughness asyou have 80% of your toughness so you take 24 toughness damage and now 6 goes through to health

you now have 96 tough which is 64% of capacity and health is 94

third blow . 64% is absorbed to tough and you take 19.2 to toughness and now 10.8 goes straight through to Health

bottom line getting hit with 100% toughness does nothing it goes very bad very fast the lower your toughness gets as a % of its cap

Raising toughness will allow you to tank more ranged shots and reduce the rate at which your toughnes %drops to hits in melee as you have a bigger pool the hits are smaller percentages of it.

Vets probably gain a lot froms tacking tough and theres an argument for zeolots and ogres if they have restore % toughnes feats and bless builds

tldr if you dont have full toughness be very carefull you dont get smacked around in melee. but you dont need to fear ranged till it runs out.

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Doesn’t it only stop you from taking chip damage at 100% tho? Percentile, not numerical.

'least that’s how it’s described intended to be working in the launch notes.

The recent toughness change was supposed to work such that any toughness ABOVE an absolute value of 100 (not 100%, but a value of 100) will stop the full damage amount. Once you get below an absolute value of 100, then you’ll take 100% - 0% bleed through damage from having 100 - 0 value toughness.

Please correct me if you know differently, but I believe this is how it’s supposed to work when not bugged.

As for sprinting. Here’s what i think they should do: Make it so you can ONLY sprint when you actually have stamina (you get kicked back into normal walking speed when you’re out of a stamina). Then make sprinting useful, such that you CAN create space away from enemies (e.g. they can’t melee hit track you) and also make it so that when sprinting so long as you have stamina you aren’t staggered or slowed by ranged fire.

Quoting the Launch Notes:
image

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Ok and thanks @Padds for the numbers breakdown.

In practice though that first hit is very often some goober walking up behind you and clocking you on the head, so you’re into problem territory very quickly and taking damage faster.

It also means low toughness low health is still very often a death sentence and instead of buffing T it’s quite likely to be simply better overall to have more wounds or HP. That’s my gut feeling anyhow, especially againt hard-hitting enemies that are going to wreck T fast as it is.

it only mitigates 100% of melee dmg while you are on 100% toughness not above numerical value 100.

Thanks for the correction. Still, it isn’t “pointless”.

it really will depend on how often you get hit :wink: if you can regain your toughness between hits its great.

i strongly suspect this system will be changed its very obtuse and unclear , and with melee and ranged behaving so different its just confusing people.

right now melee hits you 3X as hard to your health if you have 25% toughness compared to what 75% toughness gets you , and theres just no communication in game as to how or why that works that way

I wonder why they didn’t just make it “25% of melee damage bypasses toughness if toughness is not 100% when hit”, or something equally simple.
Sprinting… is indeed kinda pointless.

Toughness stacking seems pointless now because of their retroactive chip damage patch. Maybe regen speed would be better than increasing the amount.

Sprinting would be useful if you had a momentum modifier for attacks while moving at full speed, other than that it’s good for getting from place to place quickly but yeah.

Regen speed would make coherency more obsolete I think. Don’t want no solo Kerillians here please.

It’s a bit too obscure, moreso now it’s been throughly explained.

Even with the current system of tranferring damage to HP based upon the current T, it’s still better to boost HP and not care about buffing T. A bigger health pool has surely got to be better than a bigger shield that still transfers damage through it and doesn’t stop you getting stunned.

Anything after first hit causes HP damage. Being able to take more HP damage is going to keep you upright longer than mitigating HP damage will because even with say, 500 T you’re still taking HP damage after first hit.

I mean, regen speed requires coherency anyways. The game also will intentionally send specials after people in low coherency explicitly because “Lol get rekt.” So solo yolos should be pretty rare.

As an ogryn, toughness is the only thing keeping me alive on heresy and its been working pretty well so far, now that ive adjusted my play style a little

Ok I’m glad you turned up.

I need to figure out WHY toughness is keeping the Ogryn alive instead of say, 5 wounds and increased HP%. What is it about the ogryn(or anyone for that matter) that makes toughness more valuable than a high HP pool? Especially as I’ve played as Vet with something like 284 toughness - even before making level 30 and higher level curios. I’m simply better off with 5 wounds and hp% so what is it about ogryn that makes it different? The charge stopping you getting caught out and toughness hammered by ranged? I haven’t played Ogryn yet.

@Taranok I interpreted it as instead of getting +% toughness on a curio you get +% T Regen speed, which would encourage players to F OFF on their own.

I think because I don’t kill anything with ranged damage (at all), that almost every single melee attack I make is regening toughness, ontop of kills. Most of the time the mid horde poke damage catches me at 100% so I don’t even take chip damage that often.

Biggest problem are ranged enemies, best strategy is to not hesitate at all, the split second consideration before barrelling towards them is usually the difference between staggering them and getting peppered. Your charge is your only real tool here (apart from shield but it’s not for me), very useful but you find it’s on recharge more often than you get to use it effectively.

Exclusively using the mk III cleaver or shovel, playing pretty aggressively, making sure as many of my attacks as possible hit 2 enemies for toughness regen.