Another reason locked perks and blessings is a huge problem

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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no but that doesn’t matter (when skill is equal) about 1 game out of 20, does it? the random element, statistically, determined the outcome.

these are all useful examples because they demonstrate quite clearly several things you can observe over game design more generally:

  1. games that are high skill determinant routinely have random determinant outcomes that players drastically underestimate because they centre the skill factor in their analysis

  2. games that are high random determinant routinely have skill determinant, often very strongly so eg poker, but players dramatically underestimate because they center the random factor in their analysis

  3. none of this (explititve) foundationally determines anything about a game’s quality, longevity, audience etc etc. candyland i would say is barely a game and has outsold almost an arbitrary quantity of better designed games, more people play it, have positive memories of it etc.

which to me strongly suggests something i have been banging on about for a long time now and is game design 101 - players don’t hate random, they hate bad odds. they don’t care about games that have chance so long as they are subjectively evaluated as “fair”. and, counterintuitively, they will routinely rate games profoundly unfair mathematically as “fair” if their subjective perspective weighs skill or random based or even something else more highly, or single out games that are truly fair ie random as being particularly unfair.

82

Just play Vermintide or literally anything else instead until whoever is making these idiotic decisions gives up.

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Clearly nitpicking and failing to read since it was just an example and you miss the rest what is written down.
Numbers, numbers, numbers… that´s it.

And yet again you come with modded stuff aswell, while we´re talking about the vanilla experience ONLY.

And here just the first class showing up in V2.

The first 3 talents are the same on each class, either THP from X or the healing one.
Then we´ve increased power and more increased power, maybe some increased cleave power, followed by stagger power.
And then we come to the last 7 traits where we can finally see 2 that actually have an impact on the gameplay like rezzing teammates and dodgerange.

And in this way you can go through all careers. Of course there are also some better ones like Engi or Ranger Vet, but it just mostly boils down to “choose a trait to tweak your numbers!”.

On top we´ve this:

Not much to roll on weapons and trinkets, meanwhile the most is “a chance to not consume X” or “procc Y”. The biggest gameplay difference might be to be able to use your ultimate more often or that perfect blocks get highly rewarded.

This is all you can do in this game. The bit of perks you reroll are just some numbers aswell. Yes you can combine stuff and call it a build, but the impact on “how to play a class” is minimal. The weapons you choose already tell you “Hey i´m here to waveclear.” or “Armoreds? No issue to me.”. You can add numbers to make the strentgh even stronger or to play around the weakness, but that´s it.

And now my example for a game if you want to min / max modding with build variety:

Yes the game is far away from being perfect aswell, but you just need to look on those pages to see how many stuff it offers to work around.
There is stuff just about numbers aswell, but there is also stuff changes the gameplay, tweaks your skills and which you can combine in different ways.

It´s ok if V2 has enough build diversity for you, but it´s nothing else but shallow for me since again… the most stuff is just about numbers, breakpoints, and not about gamechangers.

84

Agreed staying out of the arguments and just reading them has been quite amusing :smiley: especially this guy in particular

classic

85

readies la chancla

Play nice children.

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Steven He - I Will Send You To Jesus - YouTube

87

read this post real quick before this dude gets scared and deletes it again lol

88

axecab confirmed ? Do you high five yourself too lol

89

I clearly responded to all your examples in a summarized and conclusion style response, until that point. You like doing this little quoting thing ad infinitum without being constructive, so I figured using your own style against you might prove more consumable to you, rather than actually arguing purely based on materially relevant points. You fell into your own traps though, which made your thread continue to devolve. You made me play yourself, as it were.

Your numbers statement makes no sense, and I’ve picked up on some translation/ESL patterns in your responses, like using the word “last” instead of “end” consistently. I’m not one to shame based on this, as many of my family and friends are ESL, but your lack of information paired with aggressive/confusing formats is super tiring.

You malicously misinterpreted a clearly broken-out explanation where I referenced all the available silos of vanilla/modded/twitch/deeds/tourny/etc. Again your level of information is so surface level that you might not even realize how out-of-touch you sound, but it’s probably just the Dunning-Kruger effect at play. All of these elements really make me feel like I’m wasting my time further humoring you.

Just because certain elements are similar across the board does not detract from total variety/permutations available. Most vehicles use wheels, yet they have a vast range of variety. Human DNA is composed of ACGT and yet we have such variety. Again, you aren’t grasping what variety is, either conceptually or because you choose not to participate in it for voluntary or biased reasons.

And yet again, your examples betray how little you know about mechanics, synergies, and the build variety present in VT2, let alone other similar market titles. Can you tell me what the difference is between a handgun/spear&shield huntsman, a blunderbuss/2H hammer huntsman, and a spear/bow huntsman? Can you recognize how their properties, traits, talents, and entire gameplay varies wildly? Those are three builds off the top of my head, of the MANY huntsman builds, out of the MANY kruber career builds, out of the MANY careers and builds available to the other saltz/kerilian/bardin/sienna builds available. Incidentally, another sienna career is coming out, and historically will include more weapons (which increases the build pool for other siennas.)

It’s becoming impossible to break down your responses without appearing rude and/or becoming topically unconstructive, and I believe I’ve said all that I can to you in a reasonable amount of good faith effort on my end. Thanks for your perspectives, we just foundationally disagree across the board, and you can have whatever last words you’d like. I’ll even read but not reply. gg :+1:

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You really need to tell me where the stuff above is NOT constructive. Like seriously… i also linked pages and told you in a short way about the differences and what the tide-series clearly lacks TO ME.

I also agreed to disagree in my last sentence…

Also this already proofs my claims to some points:

The weapons make the difference. It´s not that a perk, trait, blessing or whatever suddenly change how a weapon works. You just get more power, more cleave, more stagger or more attackspeed from the most stuff. No animation-changes, no elements, not even a strong defensive tool like the bulletshield on a forcesword in DT, which might be exclusive to let a class or weapon shine.

Repeat how often you want that my knowledge is only on the surface or other stuff, but it isn´t. It´s just that i don´t see much variety when the weapon itself pretty much predefine how to play and what´s your job is as much as career-skills do.

And talking about career-skills is the same. You can slightly adjust some of them like Engi with millions of bullets or just a handful and huge penetration. It´s atleast something and not just numbers, but in the end it´s still Engi using his gun just with different priorities when we talk about enemies. BH the same, or the difference between longbow and hagbane on Kerillian etc…

And just an example:
I´ve played a full attack speed build with a crowbill on Pyro. The impact was “spam your staff to keep high heat for more AS and hold your ultimate on cooldown for thp.”
So in summary i did the same as before but used my ultimate more to protect myself against some random hits instead of saving it for specials.

Again… if you´re fine with it, it´s fully up to you and i´m not going to change your mind. The game series is just highly limited in a lot of ways when we´re not talking about how different weapons work. And on top all those numbers but hero-power doesn´t have a big impact but reaching breakpoints in the most cases aswell. FS would probably do a better job to get ride of stats and balance all weapons / classes across multiple difficulties you can start with immediately. It would save a lot of time and they could instead bring more content, classes, new abilities and weapons to play with.

EDIT: And just an example for a “could be” from this game…
Psyker staves work all differently. So why is this not more like an ability and you choose what you actually want and are able to skill around it within a real skilltree? Instead it´s just bound on the weapons where you roll +X% when Y happens or something and call it a day as you did before on Sienna, meanwhile you can get some extra % from your classtree.

This is how the other classes look aswell especially Vet and Zealot. Ogryn has atleast some more impact on his tankyness, how to play to make the most use of it and his grenade-ability might force you to target armored enemies for some extra boom. It´s atleast something going into the right direction when talking about some serious build differences that are not boiled down to the weapon-choice.

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