Add option for Zealot to equip 2 melee weapons

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide Gameplay Feedback
1

This has probably been suggested before, but I didn’t see an existing thread on the official forum. This Reddit thread on the subject got quite a bit of engagement, although most people (including myself) thought the OP’s suggested bonuses for dual-melee were too strong. I thought it was worth bringing the idea here.

My suggestion is to add an upgrade node for the Blades of Faith blitz, since throwing knives are the logical pairing for a build with no ranged weapon. The main selling point is having 2 different melee weapons in a build, so it doesn’t need a lot of extra bonuses. However, spending a skill point should have some bonus attached other than just unlocking a side-grade build option. This is how I envision the new node:

Name: Overzealous
Prerequisite: Blades of Faith
Description:
Your ranged weapon is replaced with another melee weapon of your choice.
+50% Blades of Faith maximum quantity
+100% Blades of Faith recovered from all sources
+50% weapon swap speed (optional)*

Having more throwing knives and recovering them faster helps compensate for the lack of a ranged weapon, but doesn’t massively affect the overall class balance. The addition of a weapon swap-speed buff was suggested in the previously-mentioned Reddit thread and I think it makes sense thematically with the dual-melee concept, and again it shouldn’t greatly affect the class balance. If we want to be conservative on power creep, the swap speed bonus could be omitted.

I think this addition would help give the Zealot class a stronger identity in the roster. While Zealot used to be the preeminent melee class, now Hive Scum, Arbites, and even Psyker are eclipsing Zealot in certain playstyles. Zealot isn’t weak, but I find less and less incentive to play it over other options these days. Having the option for 2 melee weapons could really revitalize the class both in terms of buildcrafting and unique flavor.

From a technical standpoint, when this node is allocated, the currently-selected secondary weapon (normally the ranged weapon) could just default to a random melee weapon, prioritizing rarity and then rating. This would ensure the weapon slot isn’t empty, and the player can then select a different secondary melee weapon if they want. When the node is de-allocated, the same would happen but with a random ranged weapon.**

EDIT:
* Naturally, the numbers can be adjusted for balance. If you want to include a swap speed bonus but 50% is too much, it could be 25% or whatever instead. Likewise, the +100% Blades of Faith recovered could be limited to melee kills to reinforce the melee-only playstyle.

** If the game is likely to encounter errors from an empty weapon slot, you would also need to handle this edge case: someone allocates the new node, sells all their ranged weapons, and then deallocates the node. It’s probably easiest to just give them a starter ranged weapon (like a new character gets) to fill the weapon slot.

2

I agree with this.

Allowing Zealot to run Thunder Hammer + something better for dealing with the horde solves the class’s problem of having mediocre blitz skills and band-aids the fact that it’s the only class in the game with no ranged capabilities of note.

3

That would be sick. It feels like Zealot doesn’t have the identity it once did.

4

If you don’t take at least one “surprise” Crusher overhead while raving about the Emperor, can you even call yourself a zealot?

5

That’s a good idea, but I’m not really happy about the requirement to waste one more talent point to get there tbh. It feels something that should be a playstyle choice, not a some kind of empowerment you need to buy by spending a talent point. Especially when you say yourself it doesn’t make zealot stronger, just gives him some identity and broadens their toolset.

IMO, the fact you already are tied to always using Blades if you want to go that direction, and lose your range weapon, is enough price to pay. Thus I would just make it a natural property of that Blitz. Like, if you choose BoF as blitz, you now have an option to equip a second melee weapon instead of the range weapon if you wish. Or not, if you don’t. If you do, you get the bonuses you mentioned, otherwise BoF works exactly as it does now.

Or they could make a new type of node in the tree, the one that allows mutli-choice within a single node, so you could select which way you prefer. As long as you don’t need to spend any more talent points it’s fine.

6

Give zealot more ranged/blitz options for armour (melta gun when?) and add a ranged-skirmisher subspec (like psyker has melee).

I think zealot reached this point because the issue was masked for so long by FotF allowing any ranged weapon to blast crushers with ease. My preferred anti armour weapon was the laspistol in those days.

I’m not sure that change was such a good idea for loadout diversity but there are lots of things the devs could do to improve zealot build diversity without turning the flamer into a gamebreaker.

7

There should be Crusader career with “Crusader Oath” keystone that forfeits your ranged weapon for a second melee one and some defensive boons. Crusaders are zealous fighters who are known to only carry melee weapons and shields in the battle.

Also please add Stormshield + Powersword and power axes!!!

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8

@Enforest
The problem with this idea is you’re asking for a class redesign, which is a much bigger undertaking than the original suggestion I made. If they just add a new node as I proposed, they don’t need to change anything else with the class. And frankly, I’d like the option to use dual-melee with existing keystones like Blazing Piety and Martyrdom.

9

@dunnothisguy
I don’t think it’s a “waste” to spend a skill point on this, especially with the extra bonuses beyond just enabling 2 melee weapons. There are plenty of nodes on the tree less impactful than this.

I understand wanting playstyle choice, but who is seriously going to take stun or fire grenades as their blitz over throwing knives on a build with no ranged weapon? I think this is just the illusion of choice if you’re trying to make an effective build. Attaching the dual-melee option to Blades of Faith rather than say a keystone gives more real choice for how you craft your build.

I could see a case for just allowing you to select a melee weapon in place of ranged weapon by default on the Zealot class, but that would require modifying the inventory UI for a single class to enable switching the filter between ranged and melee for that slot. Having this kind of special-case stuff in the UI that used by all classes doesn’t seem ideal unless dual-melee is going to be an option for other classes, which goes against the idea of this being a unique feature of Zealot.

10

I mean, the main choice will happen between taking two melee weapons or staying with one and still having a good range weapon option. This is a very meaningful and impactful choice already, on itself. I personally dislike BoF, never take it unless I really have to (on builds that use Flamer and Boltgun mostly, to make removing specialists a bit easier). Even with the improvements you suggested it still sucks as a tool to remove specialists reliably, especially when there are a lot of them coming from different directions, sometimes hiding inside hoards, sometimes being a target moving at an angle to you at distance, it’s really, really frustrating to use them for that purposes. Not to mention any other kind of remote threats, that use armor. Often it’s PIA to kill something with flak armor with BoF, you need to consistently hit heads (again, often at a moving target, at a distance). Honestly, I don’t really understand all the love BoF gets :slight_smile: To me, it’s a plug to stick into the hole which can’t be plugged with something better atm.

11

There aren’t any ‘good range weapon options’ for Zealot though, because Zealot doesn’t have any ranged support.

Anything Zealot can bring another class will do better. Psyker does Flamer but superior in every way (deployment, damage, mobility, infinite ammo), and Veteran outclasses Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and Revolver Zealot with minimal investment.

12

I’ve been having absolute blast with Agripinaa Combat Shotgun lately, I was taken by complete surprise how good it is now, as a backup weapon. I’ve been using it my event’s missions build almost exclusively, it’s an excellent addition to a heavy melee weapon like thammer or eviscerator or RB, as it offers rather fast moving speed and 4 dodges. The alt fire mode allows to make quick work of any specialist except Mutant, at any distance, after you’ve accustomed to it. You two tap Rippers with it at medum range sometimes, if you manage to hit the head with alt attack first.

Also before I used revolver for about the same purpose with good results. And ofc Boltgun and Flamer are never a bad choice too (if you take BoF to compliment them, as it’s PIA do deal with specialists otherwise).

13

That’s cool, I’m glad you’re having fun with it.

Doesn’t change my points though.

I used to like Revolver until they buffed enemy healthpools and now its already punishing ammo economy got way worse.

14

Dunno how it would play out, but it sounds a lot of fun. I support this.

15

I don’t agree with this proposal. IMO thats the point to trade better dealing with one kind of enemies for other kind of enemies. I made several builds and managed to come with my own that can obliterate hordes of enemies, bosses and ranged specialist without struggle. I would say you can perform well with every class but you cannot play each class the same way.

17

This is game with rather low replayability most of which comes from flexible build system that allows you to try various playstiles to not get bored with it while playing it for hundreds of hours. If you have to come up with just a few builds that work to have fun (so, “meta”) - that design is obviously failing and there is an issue. Having extra playstiles like OP suggests is great (and actually matches the zealot’s class niche, it’s a melee DD class after all, so focusing fully on melee makes sense in their case). Being pigeon-holed into a few builds like you seem to claim is “normal” is not great at all.

18

I come with builds that work for me, which are both effective and fun to play with. I am not pigeon-holed like you claim, i experiment with my builds. I don’t see any under-representation of zealots in matches at all. Regarding melee i also disagree, the game itself is very much melee - you can’t shoot every enemy you see cause you will run out of ammo in 2 min. For the 2nd melee weapon the point is also to have some “Weakness” like trading hoard killing for crushers killing and vice versa. If you have 2 melee weapons you eliminate that and all meta would be that and just like you said it would be boring.

For the replayability i think simple things:s more maps, more classes, more weapons, more different modes, this game for sure could use some.

19

None of that will provide any significant replayability, especially in the volumes FS is capable to deliver all those things in (very shallow volumes). A new class grants you may be 30-40 hours of relatively fresh gameplay (the last two classes felt rather redundant already, very similar to how other classes play already) - while taking at least half a year, up to a year of developers efforts. It’s basically a deadend direction if you want replayability, but it’s profitable so FS keeps doing that.

Weapons and such - this game hardly needs even more, with half of the existing ones are being effectively underused due to having bad damage profiles and movesets. And again, a couple weapons a year won’t enhance replayability that much.

You’ll achieve much more replayability by aiming at making all existing weapons and Ability/Blitz combinations viable, to a certain degree (it’s mostly about them being able to deal with carapace armor spam these days, the whole thing needs to get reworked, with weapons like heavy sword or devilclaw sword getting alt attacks or special strikes that are good at peircing carapace armor, and Crushers getting weak spots somewhere around their neck, and on the back, allowing to ignore part of their armor if you hit it with certain weapons/strikes).

Another strategy is ofc adding more modifiers, more enemy variety, more RNG factors to regular missions. That’s what we hope to see them doing in the Expeditions, they promised it at least, so we’ll see very soon.

20

Kinda yes and kinda no. With more stuff come more variability thats for sure and more combinations to explore sure. On one hand i welcome a fresh game for as you said 30-40 hours, sure it can get boring later but imo the same could be said on every existing class after a while. Of course some tweaks to existing skill would nice to make them viable. Overall i wouldn’t say its deadend, we need both: making current stuff viable and new stuff - of course FS will add "profitable stuff because they aren’t charity.

The ogryn definetely needs some more, he has the lowest amount of weapons and most them has a very very specific usage, making them no very viable imo. Plus more stuff can’t hurt, can it ? :slight_smile:

WIth the rest i agree in most part, but i rather see it together with new stuff. Regarding carapace armor, while i do not struggle against such enemies i agree some weapons perform rather bad against such enemies, and surerly crushers could use weakspot, this way it would make game more about skill and not a weapon.

21

I’d expect any ‘Secondary Weapon is Melee too’ option would be added via a new Premium class, similar to the Grail Knight in VT2. Obvious choice for this would be the Crusader mentioned up the thread, unless they want to go completely out of left field and go with a Fulgurite Electro-Priest and have that be the Admech representation for Players.