A new way to encourage Cooperation : Specialization of Builds

Hello I would like to talk about game’s mechanics and their evolution in detail but English isn’t my mother tongue. I hope it will be understandable, I will let the initial French text in the next post. I love this game and I think we could be further in its cooperative aspect. I only play ranged heroes, keep it in mind while reading my suggestions. This text is long and well detailed, although a bit disorganized just like this interminable introduction suggests.

I would like to congratulate and thank the developers for their wonderful work and the hundreds of hours playing their game.

NB: This text could spoil you game’s mechanic and you should master the game before reading!

Here are the point I would like to highlight:

  1. Different kinds of enemies in Legend
  2. Most efficient ranged build (+bonus)
  3. New specialization of Heroes
  4. Example of new build

I. Different kinds of enemies in Legend
I will classify the enemies according to their importance for now in Legend. Your hero or team has to be efficient to kill them rapidly and efficiency in order to save ammunition and health.

1.1. Raiders : Chaos / Infantry / 39hp
Raiders are everywhere and due to their relatively high hp (39) you have to be sure to 1-Shot them in order to save ammo.

1.2. Stormvermins : Skaven / Armored / 39hp
You will meet a lot of Stormvermins in Legend and due to their armoured type it can be difficult to eliminate them efficiency.

1.3. Fanatic / Clanrat / Skavenslave (18hp/15hp/7.5hp)
They are dangerous because they are plentiful. Easy to kill but you have to use a lot of ammo to clean hordes.

1.4. Berzerker : Chaos-Skaven / Berzerker / 54hp-52hp
They are resistant but in small group, it isn’t primordial to focus your build on them.

1.5. Mauler : Chaos / Infantry / 90hp
Relatively plentiful but infantry type (true damage).

1.6. Chaos Warrior : Chaos / Armoured / 120hp
Very resistant, you often have to use your skill on them.

1.7. Specials
Their types are wide (armoured, infantry) but due to their low hp (34 to 60hp) it’s relatively easy to kill them without sacrifice in your build.

1.8. Boss/Monster
One member (or two) of our squad has to deal a lot of damage to monster.

1.9. Conclusion
As you can see the mechanic which links the race and type allows numerous enemy class and heroes builds for specific task. But i think it could be more developed, we will see why later.
Furthermore, variety of enemies will be added in the extension and diversify the bestiary.

  1. Most efficient ranged builds (+ bonus)

2.1. Markus (repeated handgun)
The most important thing is to optimise damage and talents in order to save and restore a lot of ammunitions.

  • Talent : Makin’it Look Easy : 25% increased critical hit chance (after headshot)
  • Passive : Waste Not, Want not : Ranged headshots recover 1 ammunition
  • Passive : Call out weakness : lead to 10% critical base hit chance
  • Passive : Deep Pockets : 50% more ammo capacity
  • Ability : Hunter’s Prowl
  • Repeated handgun : 5% critical hit chance and scrounger (critical hits restore 5% of ammo)
  • Trinket : 5% critical hit chance and 10% reduction CD

Then you have to optimize your damage versus chaos and monster to allow you to restore your ammunitions during the entire game.

  • 20% damage vs Chaos
  • 10% damage vs Monstre

With this build you will deal:

  • Raiders : 40.8 damage = 1-Shot
  • Stormvermins : 21.75 damage = 2-Shot
  • Hordes = 1-Shot
  • Berzerker : 16,2 damage = 4-Shot (sadly we only need 0.45 more damage with 30% bonus damage in order to 3-Shot savage)
  • Mauler : 40.8 damage = 3-Shot
  • Chaos warrior : hard to kill without the ability
  • Spécial : 1 or 2-Shot for all of them
  • Monster/boss : very high damage with the ability and potions

As you can see on the one hand you will deal very high damage to the whole bestiary and one the other hand you will have infinite ammunition when played carefully.

2.2. Victor (Brace of pistols)
Like Markus, we need to optimise generation of ammunitions thanks to scrounger.

  • Passive : Blessed Shots : Guaranted ranged critical hit every 6 seconds (with Cruel Fortune)
  • Passive : Ammo Pouches : 50% more ammo capacity
  • Same properties and traits as Markus for the equipment

With this build you will deal :

  • Raiders : 45.2 damage = 1-Shot
  • Stormvermins : 17.5 damage = 3-Shot
  • Hordes = 1-Shot
  • Berzerker : 27.9 damage = 3-Shot
  • Mauler : 45.2 damage = 2-Shot
  • Chaos warrior : hard to kill without the ability
  • Special : 2 or 3-Shot all of them
  • Monster/boss : Huge damage with potions

This build is relatively similar to Markus repeated handgun in its gameplay and damage. Although Blessed Shots’ mechanic is interesting and damage versus bosses and monster are insanely high.

2.3. Victor (Crossbow)
With crossbow and similar build you will deal :

  • Raiders : 40.8 damage = 1-Shot
  • Stormvermins : 21.75 damage = 2-Shot
  • Hordes = 1-Shot
  • Berzerker : 30.6 damage = 2-Shot
  • Mauler : 40.8 damage = 3-Shot
  • Chaos warrior : hard to kill without the ability
  • Special : 1 or 2-Shot all of them
  • Monster/boss : low rate of fire leads to low damage in general

The gameplay and role is different than the other. With Blessed Shots you will 1-Shot the entire world whereas you are inefficient against bosses and monsters. We can feel a small specialization in this build. Sadly it doesn’t require any variation in the build (equipment and talents) due to the low damage on infantry. The strengths of the build aren’t strong enough in comparison with its weaknesses (compared to brace of pistols and repeated handgun). I wanted to show you this crossbow build in order to highlight the fact that you can have different role with the same hero (Victor here) according to your weapon. But I think you should be able to vary your equipment and talents to suit more specific role (boss killer, specials hunter, hordes cleaner, etc).

2.4. Bonus : Victor (Repeated pistol)
It is unnecessary to detail this build (damage) to show you the domination of (over)versatile builds. I wanted to show you this build which is excellent to clean hordes and weak enemies thanks to its fire rate. However, its low damage is huge handicap in Legend because you need two ammunitions against Raiders and up to five against Stormvermins. We also feel a specialization to a certain task in the squad (weak enemy) but it is largely insufficient in comparison with repeated handgun or brace of pistols.

2.5. Conclusions and balance
As you can see, optimisation is an interesting part of the game. Without the 20% bonus damage vs Chaos (or infantry) Markus and his repeated handgun isn’t able to 1-Shot Raiders (34 base damage). Possibilities offered by the game are big but not enough developed right now. Nearly every “polished” build can killed nearly all types of enemies. Some polyvalent builds excel in all categories whereas other specific builds are too weak. I’m not here to speak about weapons balancing (maybe in another post) but I want to highlight the potential of this mechanic: Specialization of the Heroes roles.

  1. New specialization of Heroes
    As we saw previously, the game allows you to optimise your build and damage against certain type or race of enemies. Their attributes can be mixed and lead to quantity of enemies and build. Furthermore a new race is incoming and could bring even more diversity. However, for now it is possible to make versatile build useful in every situation.

The idea is to bring a new difficulty (more difficult than Legend) focus on strategy and teambuilding (thanks to the heroes’ specialization). One player, according to his weapon and talents, should optimise his build for certain types/races of enemies. In this way, for example, Markus who focused on killing bosses and monsters has to rely on Victor for cleaning Berzerker and specials. In the same way, Sienna who chose to focus on Skaven has to rely on a solid ally to kill Raiders and Chaos Warriors. Of course this is not about making certain type of enemies unkillable for Markus or Victor but they will have to spend a lot of resources (ammo / time) in order to kill an enemy for which they aren’t prepared for (is it correct sentence ?). And it is preferable to let Sienna or Bardin kill this kind of enemy.

It is evident that this difficulty needs a well prepared squad and will only be accessible with a group’s strategy. Every build should be able to kill several types of enemies and also we have to add new options for building (30% bonus damage are too low). Furthermore we should add, to every heroes, at least two new talents. First one allow you to deal bonus damage according to enemy type (armored, infantry, monster, berserker) and the other one to enemy race. It can be bonus damage with condition for example: X% bonus damage versus Skaven after killing one Chaos enemy or Y% bonus damage versus berserker for your first ammo, etc. The options on equipment should be extanded too because it is actually too easy to get the weapon you need without grinding.

In my opinion these changes, although important, aren’t very complicated to add in the base game. It is about adjustments in the hp value of the enemies (as for Legend compared to recruit) and add a new difficulty (as for Onslaught). The part on the modification of equipment and talents is complicated because of the enhancement of equipment and build possibilities. It can be difficult to balance the game and enable so many builds. This mode has to have no impact on the existing difficulties because it is really well balanced for all team. That’s why the modification of talents and weapons could be problematic.

In my opinion, it could be interesting to add up to 200% bonus damage against specific enemies. Spend 2 or 3 times more ammo than actually against enemies you aren’t specialised for. This changes could lead to other playing style because I see too many ranger or assassins able to kill nearly all enemies by themselves (monsters included). I’m not sure about melee weapon because I don’t use them enough.
I know how hard it could be to implement in the current state of the game and I think the developers have too many work. But I would like to spend time (unemployment lol) on developing a mod but I know absolutely nothing and I don’t know if it is achievable with the assembly kit? It is never too late to learn and if somebody have knowledges and tutorials let me know !

  1. Example of builds
    This is an idea of what builds could look like after changes

4.1. Markus (Repeated handgun) V2 : Hordes’ cleaner
With this build, Markus, with his high fire rate and precise repeated handgun focus on cleaning hordes. He takes bonus damage against infantry and chaos.
This is his damage after the hp up of the enemies:

  • Raiders : 1-Shot (vs 1)
  • Stormvermins : 5-Shot (vs 2)
  • Hordes : 1-Shot (vs 1)
  • Berzerker : 7-Shot (vs 4)
  • Mauler : 3-Shot (vs 3)
  • Chaos Warrior : impossible without his ability
  • Special : 2 to 4-Shot (vs 1 to 2)
  • Monster/Boss : less damage than before
    As we can see the difficulty is higher. Although Markus can clean the hordes and Raiders, he is in difficulty against specials and armoured enemies. He can still kill them when necessary but he will lose a lot of ammunitions (3 times more).

4.2. Victor (Brace of pistols) V2 : Boss killer
The aim of this build is to kill monsters. Victor can deliver huge damage in a short period with his guns. He focus on taking bonus damage versus monsters and armoured enemies.

  • Raiders : 3-Shot (vs 1)
  • Stormvermins : 2-Shot (vs 3)
  • Hordes : 1 to 2-Shot (vs 1)
  • Berzerker : 7-Shot (vs 3)
  • Mauler : 4-Shot (vs 2)
  • Chaos Warrior : 10-Shot (vs x-shot)
  • Spécial : 2 to 4-Shot (vs 2 to 3)
  • Monster/Boss: Insane damage !

4.3. Conclusion (TLDR)
The aim of my post is to approach the specialization of roles during the game to counter the current versatility of Heroes and add more cooperation.
I hope you understand my idea and I am curious to know your opinion. To sum up, I would like a new difficulty (harder) with more specific builds to encourage cooperation for killing enemies according to their resistances.

Thank you for reading

1 Like

I don’t get the whole point of your post, but the impression I got is that you focus WAY too much on ammo and ranged weapons.
The game is melee based, and the fact that you said Chaos Warrior REQUIRES you ability kinda confirm my opinion. A lot of weapon can kill quite fact CW with a few charged attack.

Oh sorry my English isn’t good that’s why you don’t understand my post i think. What part is complicated or mistranslated ?

To sum up, with a good build (for me as ranger Markus) you can kill every enemies alone in Legend difficulty. I don’t really need help except for taunting monster or when i get caught by special. I saw a lot of overpowered allies too (melee or ranger). That’s why i think we might play in another difficulty where you have specific role. This system is introduced in the game with %bonus damage (for certain type or race of ennemies) on your weapon which allows for now builds to be too much versatile (imo). If this mechanic is developed enough it would encourage teamplay and cooperation even more because you would spend too many ressource (ammo/time) killing enemies you are not prepared for.

And i don’t think developers wanted a melee based game because you can play with your ranged weapon only without any ammunition problem ? It is up to you to play with your favorite weapon.

Well you can solo legends with practically anything https://www.youtube.com/user/chocoB777 here have good example of doing it.

Personally I would just nerf generalist weapons for armor penetration because right they are way too powerfull and outshine specialist in their category.

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