1 more point

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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Hiya,

I just wanted to know if anyone else feel the same. In almost all builds I try to do I almost always miss 1 point. Sure all the important things are already taken but would be fun to have the max level to 31. I don’t want more in fact this is almost every time a QOL point. Don’t think this is a game changer but just wanted sometime a particular talent for a build so can make it a lil more funny (move speed…) If no change I can totally live fine with the actual tree.

Sorry for my poor English

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You will feel quite often you could use “one more” or “few more” talent points, you just have to make some difficulty choices at times :slight_smile: This is the beauty of the talent trees as they are now. I really don’t mind this. Whilst the meta train has figured a lot of optimal builds ages ago, the current system allows for far more interesting builds, then the old system.

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Yeah I’m pretty new to this game finally just thinking almost every time the same META build and not a good room for a lil extra. For me a second tree with all blitz combat ability and ultimate skill could be cool. A main tree with another for spec. So you can choose to have a stun nades with silent and martyrdom on a character. Sure maybe pretty harder to balance all of this.

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yeah trees need to be optimized a bit.
psyker needs warp siphon shrunk
zealot and vet need singular nodes before and after blitzes
ogryns fine tho

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they increased the cap to 31 then someone will just ask for 32, its never ending.

I think I’ve heard someone idea about +1 talent point Curio, I kinda like that idea.

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Yes the curio idea sound cool to me.

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Simple answer: no, i don’t feel this at all.

I would even say that they should keep the actual number of points and not increase it or it will break a lot of things.

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You feel like 1 point, I usually feel like 2, many others have posted they want 5. And if any of us got that, then we’d see that we’d get something even better with just a few points more.

Take psykers for example. 2 more points means instead of Kinetic Presence you could always take Seer’s Presence, Empathic Evasion and +5% ranged passive.

So instead of

  • +7.5% dmg vs. Elites only

You’d get

  • +5% ranged dmg vs. everything, AND 10% faster CD’s, AND immunity to ranged on crits.

That none of us have enough is the whole point. It makes those choices meaningful.

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I am genuinely baffled. How on earth are you having point issues on psyker of all things? The class barely has enough talents to actually spend all of its points on. Unless maybe you have some ultra specific build concept that demands zero wiggle room, but I am skeptical.

Psyker and ogryn have, by far, the easiest trees to build out. Your biggest choices are just what mutually exclusive bits you want. Not like veteran where you have to deal with talent bloat eating up your points pathing around. Or zealot where you regularly bounce between both sides if the tree because the middle is such a barren wasteland of worthwhile picks.

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You missed my point. I don’t have issues with the system at all, I adore it. The psyker example was to show that 2 more points there would completely erase a choice of aura for a whole lot of builds.

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11

Ideally with talent trees in games there should be lots of thought and tradeoff involved with lots of choices. Sometimes feeling like you’re 1 or 2 pts short should happen sometimes.

That said, Darktide’s talent trees are…not fantastically well thought out or designed. There’s a lot of false/non-choices, overly restrictive branching, point sinks, and awkward crossovers. There were clearly issues with their development, the Vet 2.0 tree for example launched in patch 13 without any keystones after the devs binned their initial concept shortly before release, when the Vet finally got keystones and a 3.0 tree they required 3-4 more talent points to reach than for every other class to reach their keystones and were all significantly wonkier to use than other classes, then FS had to release a 4.0 talent tree to address some of those issues.

There’s a lot of wonkiness in the talent trees that isn’t so much clever tradeoff as poor design.

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I don’t believe I missed anything. I think your analogy is off because I can’t think of any reasonable path that would require one to take kinetic presence. You’re trying to make a case for trees providing “meaningful choice” when there’s next to zero meaningful choice with psyker auras because the optimal option is pretty clear and essentially free due to how psyker’s tree is set up. Which, by the by, was my point.

Literally the only time my psyker builds that doesn’t use the CDR aura is the when I take the crit aura so I can get to the extra dodge talent for giggles.

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It’s definitely a lot more complicated of a system to balance than VT2’s careers. Every skill choice in VT2 was a meaningful one, as they all had powerful effects. I really miss having Exhilarating Vapors when running Parting Gift, for example, and what ends up happening is that most of the time, there isn’t really a “wrong” choice to make.

Darktide’s skill trees are more involved, but also more poorly balanced. There are a lot of nothing nodes like Dance of Death in the way of more impactful nodes, like Thy Wrath Be Swift. It ends up feeling like a waste to branch out and experiment with the tree when you’re restricting yourself from a bunch of powerful nodes.

Veteran’s tree is obviously the worst offender, but I’ve taken issue with the Zealot tree as well. The nodes leading up to Blades of Zeal are just so much more in tune with how the class is intended to be played that it really hurts me to go down the other paths.

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And there’s hardly anything in the middle of the tree worth picking until you get down to the keystones. And the top left of the tree is pretty dogwater if you don’t have a melee weapon that uses heavy attacks regularly. Plus Until Death & TWBS, two talents that you really want in every zealot build, are located directly opposite each other and past some filler points to boot. Yeah, zealot’s tree has issues.

Happily, due to nerfs to minor things like IJ, chorus, and stealth, zealot only really has one good ult and only two worthwhile keystones. So that makes things much easier.

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I love all the talent tree discussions I get to creep on in these forums because, somehow, I’ve almost never used any of the “must have” picks on that are “the only real choice.”

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Right.

Well here are 3 examples:

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  • Purge is 1 talent short of either BB subs or the 5% dmg passive, and it would really love some passive toughness regen up top too. Can’t afford them tho, not if you want to get Empathic Evasion so you don’t have to care about range while you purge and also want Kinetic Deflection for too many reasons to count. (made a mistake btw the Purge would’ve taken Essence Harvest)
  • Void needs True Aim & Perfect Timing for obvious reasons, that’s that. There’s a ton of compromises there too obvious to bother listing.
  • I left the smite base short of one talent to emphasize the issue. Anything crit wants Mettle but can’t bc. Smite loves Battle Med, you could ofc. pass up on Kinetic Deflection and the passive crit for 2 talents, but 1 talent for 5% crit is way too good for most weapons. It would also really love that Malefic Momentum especially with bleed / gun / strong melee builds. Enfeeble and Psychic Leeching ofc. are both nice too.

These are just 3 examples, there’s like 50+ more, especially since stuff like True Aim is fantastic for almost any build regardless of your blitz & ult, but both Solidity and especially Warp Siphon are incredibly expensive. About the only builds that aren’t left wanting almost anywhere are pure Scrier’s & DD gunpsykers. But ofc. they usually have to deal with missing out on Psykinetic’s Aura if they want that Assail some massive ammo efficiency and synergies like DD, crits, True Aim and Warp Rider (tho that’s not a talent point problem but a pathing issue, another example of meaningful choices).

If you truly believe psyker builds are so simple and obvious there’s no choice or sacrifice involved… well. That says a lot. (note to everyone else, I’m not comparing psykers to other classes here, especially vets have it a lot tougher with how bloated and bottom heavy their talents are)

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I’ll be honest, I envy you. My strategy when playing video games is always to win as hard as possible because my brain is just wired to be that way.

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I just don’t understand that kind of fixed binary mindset in general. It’s a rare talent that’s so bad it’s practically never worth picking. A vast majority of talents, weapons and blessings can work depending on your build. Many don’t just work, but can be insanely powerful.

Darktide has one of the haziest, softest metas of any game I’ve played in a long while, yet so many people swear by it. :scream_cat:

Pretty sure their point was that it’s the winning that doesn’t work that way. Darktide just isn’t that simple.

For example, the shottie meta is probably still Full Bore & No Respite. When Scattershot & Man-Stopper has since forever been far stronger especially in crit builds.

Plasma has since the class rework been the obvious veteran meta. Yet bc of how finesse dmg buffs work, a crit / weakspot vet can push an Agri shotty far above plasma’s dmg with none of its downsides and way more ammo. Plasma is the meta not bc it’s the strongest, but because it’s ultra low effort for such high base strength.

A stamina curio on a psyker was about as off-meta as could be (maybe still is). Except psykers have atrocious base stamina but a recovery delay 2x faster than most others, and they rely heavily on mobility to survive thanks to their poor toughness/dmg resist/hp. One stamina curio for a knife psyker means 2.5x more stamina, which with the knife’s sprint effiency and that super fast recovery means virtually infinite & fast mobility, and Kinetic Deflection has a hidden property where its efficiency scales with stamina.

Zelly crusher is generally considered a weak CC option. Except it has fantastic finesse dmg, cleave, and its push attack is one of if not the best in thegame. There’s actually so much going on here that I can’t even list it or this would become too long. But the gist of it is that prior to the Invocation of Death nerf a crusher & crit & stealth zelly was likely one of the most OP zellies around. It melted everything like butter - CC:ing what it didn’t - while recharging the stealth every few seconds. It’s still really strong.

The stuff above are just examples. Things most ppl don’t even know bc they stick to the meta, thinking that’s the only thing that works. And so they never even discover the stuff that can be much stronger.

I’m not trying to insult you by calling you a meta slave here at all tho. Just saying there are so many ways to go to “win as hard as possible” that there are very few must have talents (or blessings, but that really depends on the weapon).

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I don’t believe psyker’s tree forces anything close to some of the difficult choices I’ve had to make on zealot and vet in the past.

The examples you’ve given are largely about the minutiae of talent A vs talent B where both talents are already adjacent the framework of your bare minimum build. Talents that are easily splashed on to the minimum build like choosing from a buffet.

Frankly I generally consider these sorts of options are best left to personal taste. For instance, I tend to find kinetic deflection more annoying than helpful and that quell speed is not noticeably useful enough to be worth going through a dead talent tax like coherency radius. So my builds doing the same thing as yours would omit those talents for ones I do value.

What I’m trying to convey is that psyker’s tree doesn’t have any sort of weird conundrums such as zealot’s compatibility issues between specific weapons & blitzes. Where trying to use the wrong weapon with the wrong blitz generally costs you an exorbitant amount of talents to address.

This is largely due to how open the psyker tree is to moving diagonally, the lack of self contained talent clusters that force inefficient talent choices, the general absence of talents when compared to other classes, and the addition of hard mutual exclusivity for some options. (Oh, plus the fact that 95% of all psyker weapons are crit weapons and about 80% of their dps talents are generic crit damage. But that is a tangent for another time.)

For some examples:

  • If I want to use play with a knife on zealot and also have stun grenades I’m going to have to either pay a lot of talent points or decide to use patently non-optimal talent choices.

  • If I want to play fire shout spam psyker and have both psykinetic’s aura plus assail the game just tells me I can’t.

I don’t know about you, but I consider the latter to be a much simpler decision than the former.

And then there’s poor veteran where you need to go through the murky mental decision tree on if it’s even worth it to pick a keystone.

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You dont have to pick quell speed or puppet master You dont even have to go warp siphon at all unless you pick Surge/Trauma. the only issue with psyker tree is warp siphon being way too fat