Veteran Build Diversity

[Kvidar]

There are a few assumptions I’m going to preface this post with:
-all talents across all classes are of rough equivalent value. (This is not a thread to talk about any specific talent or talent combination being OP or underpowered or bugged.)

For the purposes of this table “Passive tax” refers to the number of passive nodes between each section.
Choice tax refers to the number of lateral points that are necessary because you want to “change” from left/middle/right to a different side of the tree.

Bolded categories are the worst/most expensive of the 4 classes:

	Veteran	Ogryn	Zealot	Psyker
Passive Grenade Tax	2	1	1	1
Passive ability Tax	1	1	1	1
Passive aura tax	1	2	1	2
Passive keystone tax	1	1	1	1
Grenade choice tax	0	0	0	0
Aura choice tax	0-2	0	0-2	0
Ability choice tax	0-2	0	0-2	0
Keystone choice tax	0-2	0-2	0-2	0-1
Total Tax	5-11	5-7	4-10	5-6
Minimum pts to get to keystone	20	18	17	19
Minimum pts keystone+ability subtalents	26	23	20	21
Maximum pts keystone+ability subtalents	29	23	21	26*
Remaining Points to make the build yours	1-4	7	9-10	7-9
Pts needed to pay maximum taxes	35	25	27	24

*Interesting outlier is if a psyker chooses the specific combination of ability Scrier’s Gaze + Warp Siphon, the max possible is 26. any other combinations of ability/keystone cap out between 21-23

Quick analysis of veteran vs. the 2nd worst class in each category:
Veteran Tax potential is 1st, with zealot coming in 2nd place at 4-10… Zealot’s balance to this is the shortest route to the keystone of all classes at 17, and the lowest passive tax of all classes.

Veteran keystone minimum is 1st, with psyker coming in 2nd at 19… Psyker’s balance to this is the lowest point cost to fill out sub-talents for ability+keystone at 2-4 points depending on keystone/ability choice, in addition to the fewest “choice” taxes

Alternative approach:
If we are to assume that all talents are created equal (as again, I don’t want this thread to devolve into debate about the particular subjective value of X, Y, Z nodes) The opportunity cost of talent points per class can be equated to a direct numerical value.

	Veteran	Ogryn	Zealot	Psyker
Possible Talents	100	80	79	81
Adjusted talents	92-90	70	71	68-67

Now we remove mutually exclusive talents (Choosing 1 type of blitz locks the other 2, choosing an ability modifier that locks other ability modifiers, choosing a keystone locks all subtalents for other keystones) to generate our “Adjusted Talents” row. For Psyker and Veteran, choosing a specific ability/keystone costs more points than it’s alternatives, hence they have a range value in this row.

If we average the adjusted talents of Psyker/Ogryn/Psyker we receive a value of 69.
We take the average of Veteran talents at 91. With our previous assumption that all talents are created equal, it is on average 24.2% harder to reach a specific talent in raw numbers than the average of all other classes. Using this comparison, Veteran needs 7.2 more talent points than other classes to have the same build variety at their disposal.

In summary:
Veteran currently needs 7-11 more points to have the same degree of build variety that the others currently have.

Obviously I’m not suggesting that Veterans receive 7-11 bonus extra talent points, but it’s a concise numerical perspective that shows the strategic flaw with the veteran talent tree and my personal theory on why people are reporting critical feedback of the veteran keystone update.

My personal balance thoughts to address this on the Veteran:
-Combine keystone+keystone subtalents
If you have a keystone subtalent that just upgrades the keystone (middle and right tree for veteran) just bake those bonuses into the keystone. Only subtalents for keystones should the kinds that change the playstyle and lock eachother out.
This change would refund 2 points to veterans.
Total Tally of “free” points from starting table: 3-6

-Remove passives before grenade choice
remove this. that +15 toughness bottleneck is absurd and adds no build diversity. If you want to mandate that all veterans get +15 toughness… just increase the veteran base toughness. Don’t charge a mandatory point for it. Literally the only class in the game that gets charged this egregious of a tax. Other classes, including veteran’s before this patch, would have to take a passive point tax after every major choice (blitz, aura, etc.) but this one just hurts. I’d rather have to decide to use frag or smoke grenades based on their distance from my preferred aura + the blue talents above them than just get charged a point in order to progress. That point should be spendable in the other 84.4% of the tree that’s past the grenade choice.
This change would refund 1 point to veterans.
Total Tally of “free” points from starting table: 4-7

The two above changes still gives the veteran worse build diversity than other classes, but it at least closes the gap from 8-11 additional points for equal build diversity to 5-8.

-Tree path: Remove all the unnecessary bottlenecks
If you look at the path options for all classes, the majority of points have a choice. an opportunity cost. Ogryn and Zealot have to spend 6 points on nodes that are not a choice Psyker has to spend 3-9 points on nodes that are not a choice. Veteran has to spend 9-10
Remove 3 bottlenecks, probably from the long chain of diamonds at the bottom.
This change would refund 3 points to veterans.
Total Tally of “free” points from starting table: 7-10 This is finally equal to the other classes.

Alternate suggestions:
-Combine/remove talents. The veteran has 24.2% more simultaneously accessible nodes than all other classes, directly impacting their access to build diversity per the 2nd table in this post.

-Make choices more accessible
Giving the “choice” for things like +15% damage to elites that far down the tree is an illusion at best. The only way you can get that node is if you

1. Forgo a keystone entirely
2. Choose the left keystone
3. opt to not take the ability/keystone subtalents

[Shining_Darkness]

They really just need to remove HP and toughness nodes and replace them with that odd interconnected node the vet has in the center just before the damage aura. Where there are 3 parallels choices all accessed from one node. Every instance of +15 toughness or +5% HP should just be removed from every class and given as base stats (or, you know, return to the old base toughness and HP each class had pre-13).

This would fix the problem for vet. For others that are less talent-taxed (as you showed the vet is the only one unable to pay the max possible talent tax) just change 1 or two of these stat lines out for some other type of stat buff (crit, DR, damage, reload, stamina delay, etc)

[Yuma310]

@Kvidar

You do the God Emperor’s work, sir.

@FatsharkCatfish

Are the relevant parties aware of this? If not, then they should probably be made so, because this crystallizes a lot of the causes of the poor state of the veteran tree.

[pyr0kid]

i applaud you for putting all this together, but somehow i doubt this mess would have gotten out the door unless it was intended or it was a big enough mess internally that literally no one wanted to touch it.

in the event some devs are reading this: please listen to OP.

i’d have rather gotten nothing for another 2 months then this chain of nerf after nerf after nerf for veteran.

[Spaceman]

This is fantastic feedback that goes beyond typical criticism and provides solid math on why the new Vet trees feel terrible.

The cost of making a custom build that doesn’t blithely go down one row (at which point it might as well be the pre-patch 13 talent tree) is way too high. We are forced to take nodes we absolutely don’t want to get to the nodes we do want, and the cost of getting that node locks us out of other build-critical nodes. No other class is as restrictive or frustrating to build as Vet, and OP’s post explains numerically why it feels so bad.

[Cannon_Fodder548734]

I’ll chip in it’s frustrating that I have such little leeway for ‘branches’ after I get to the keystone. I’m honestly wondering if I shouldn’t bother with the keystone ability for my build, which imo is not really something that I should be thinking

[GiardiaGuardian]

Great number crunching. You’ve done RoundFish’s homework for them, it seems

[gmkgoat]

I suppose the “easiest” thing to do would just be to cut a bunch of nodes out of the tree and shuffle things around so the numbers line up. There’s plenty of dead talents to pick from.

[Kvidar]

yeah, you’re not wrong.

if they cut nodes or combined nodes and standardized to the averages listed above it’d be numerically fair.

That or moving all the bottleneck diamonds more horizontally. Strictly from a build diversity perspective, they could maintain the ~20 extra nodes if they were side paths. If we split those 20 nodes into 4 point diamonds (Since the vet tree is bursting with bottleneck diamonds.) they’d just need to add 5 dangling diamonds that are skip-able and not required to get to a keystone. If they did that veteran would still have the issue of a specific talent being numerically more difficult to reach, but it would at least allow breathing room in build flexibility.