It’s not dumbing down though? It’s fixing the most obvious jank that the game has seen for years. See my earlier comment about conflating difficulty with broken design.
If they weren’t a threat anyway then why bemoan their jank being fixed?
Their challenge can be added in different ways. A billion hp is not the correct route though.
for it seemed to work as an awareness check at least when people were shook out of their mindless forward stumbling only to get overwhelmed by what was catching up.
a) negate over-cleave
b) prevent people from running away from encounters
both worked ok enough for a first try in my book.
jank as it was, some had “trouble” keeping an overview and engagement priority when otherwise they just slipped past and kept spamming.
These people would praise if they were forced to play with their feet instead of hands as “good design cuz its harder you know”
and others are hard pressed to justify the mediocre playstyle like the southpark bono sketch.
m1+forward measured at least at 30 courics
After this patch, I don’t want to log into the game (temporary of course, but good faith is cracked). Vanguards were fine for me. But, of course, I’m not disappointed by their “nerf.” I’m disappointed that FS is clearly pandering to the whiners who were furious that the new enemy didn’t die in one hit.
Sure, when they first appeared, it was a bit over the top, I agree. But it gave me hope that the developer had finally taken a step toward making the game more complex and challenging. Those health and stun resistance were actually high — but those weren’t just random numbers. Vanguards were supposed to be tough nuts to crack in crowds, hindering cleave. The first nerf was expected. But now the second one has arrived. And I believe the title of this thread, even without playing and checking for myself. Overall, I don’t care about Vanguards; even in the best of times, they certainly weren’t a high-risk factor. But the current changes are a clear indication that the primary concern is making the game “comfortable power fantasy”.
I still remember when the ogryn’s box was just a “rock”, requiring 1 skill point out of 6 total just to make it explosive, and only if it hit carapace armor or a boss. And now we have stuff clearing the large packs in 1 second (arc grenades buff for exapmle)
I would like to see player nerfs across the board and I’d like to see enemy DMG buffed across the board. I am still glad the jank around the vanguard’s was fixed.
It’s nothing to do with difficulty. They were not difficult FFS.
Why not just triple the spawn rate of bullwarks if you desire high hp shield enemies?
No, that’s literal all people have been complaining about. Considering you can easily two-shot them from behind they’re not very tanky. And considering they’re literally supposed to be “the tanky mob” this has never made sense as a complaint. “Their shield is their signature weapon”? How about “they’re the common tanky mob”. They’re not threatening in melee, but they screen stuff that is.
Now they are barely anything. You kill them with headshots swinging into the horde. They functionally no longer exist when they actually succeeded well at slowing the rate at which players mulch hordes. Everyone saying “they slowed me down!” is basically just admitting “I want to just hold w all game”. I don’t like the game in this state. It’s not a skilled, fun game when it’s this easy.
The ENTIRE formula of the 'tide games is “lots of little skill checks in sequence”. Dodging, attacking, sliding, these are easy to do, but the pressure enemies create makes us have to do more apm in an ever-changing environment. This is why “dodge behind them” was a good addition; it’s one more small skill you will have to weave into your gameplay.
It was literally adding to the core ways we interact with the game. A new piece of the puzzle to solve. But god forbid we have to let go of w, amirite?
Stop projecting.
Oh, I guess you meant it at him?
I’m happy at the fix so I’m not sure how you’ve come to that conclusion.
And there was no “puzzle to solve” lol. They were just high hp sponges. Strafing was pointless as they magic cloak of sponginess engulfed them.
You’re imagining a mechanic rather than explaining one that existed.
I urge you go back to reread my suggestions on how to make them more challenging now that the jank is removed.
You can just constantly moan instead though. That’ll be productive 
I think changing enemy behaviour is fine. For example, in helldivers 2, as a comparison, the same enemy with the same health and armor values will behave differently on higher difficulties. Even getting access to entirely new attacks (Bile spewers and their mortar attacks).
I would be fine with enemies behaving differently as the players go up in difficulty. But also probably different values not just behaviour with how the game is (hit mass, stagger values, health, damage, etc.). In vermintide 2 the shield chaos warrior tries to get between players. I could see shielded enemies blocking range fire for ranged allies or even attempting to cut us off between us and our objective.
But I think the “design” of the game has fundamentally shifted for balance and difficulty since the talent trees and since havoc. Vermintide 2 feels very differently for the amount of effort it takes to kill waves of elites like we do in Darktide.
I think that players who just play the game casually don’t really test/research builds or blessing talent details (and no fault of their own not being aware of all the hidden stats and mechanics and interactions) will have a VERY different experience than those that min max and look up guides and do extensive testing.
I think it makes more sense to simply have the enemies scale differently so that the players who want to push outside the “casual” difficulties need to do more research to be as effective in the higher difficulties (with the same skill level).
A comparison comes to mind, regarding balance. Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2 TTRPGs. I DM’d these games for awhile. And in pathfinder, oh man, it was a nightmare to balance at times. You would have some players picking things that seemed cool or thematic and then you had other players who min-maxed and were excel warriors. You had a gap of players getting +16 to their d20 rolls and other players, same level, getting +36 to their d20 rolls (Synthesist summoner). Not to mention damage.
Pathfinder 2, however, there was a lot more tight control on any mechanical buffs, things that increased health, damage, to hit, AC, etc. There was more upgrades related to theme, side grades, utility, etc. So pretty much every character would be on par, at the same level, for the mechanically core and important stats. Or at least reasonable differences.
I say this because a player just randomly picking random talents and a random melee weapon is going to be different from someone with a highly synergistic min maxed darktide build. The game is in a state that makes it very hard to balance, but it should be balanced. But the only way I could see doing it would be a lot of big changes. We are in something similar to Pathfinder 1st edition when ideally we should be more like in a system that’s like Pathfinder 2nd edition. Which is a design choice. How varied should builds be? How varied should weapons be? How much of a gulf between meta and off-meta choices? How much of a difference in difficulty between difficulties and game modes?
That sounds like a personal problem.
Look, I can accept them getting nerfed since it’ll be healthier for the game, but holy this statement is crazy
It’s INSANE how bad the average Darktide player is at hitting weakspots (even in Havoc 40 the average is between 30-50% of melee weakspot), because even pre nerf hitting their head was CONSISTENTLY DOABLE
Yes, their HP were inflated but how Bad do you acrually have to be to prefeer fighting an enemy you LITERALLY CAN’T HIT THROUGH UNLESS THEY OPEN THEIR GUARDS vs GUYS WITH A SHIELD THAT YOU CAN IGNORE THE SHIELD ITSELF AND HIT THEIR HEAD THROUGH IT
I seriously rather fight 10 Vanguards than 4 Bulwarks every single time, even if the Vanguards take longer they don’t deny me from stopping the other threats behind them
And of course, literally NO ONE who constantly complained about Vanguards ever used one of the weapons that counter them. 0 crusher users, 0 shock maul users, 0 chain weapon users, even tho all of these hard countered Vanguards
I’m happy they got nerfed since people will actually stop complaining now, but the amount of lies and misinformation, as well as the insane amount of coping is just wow
countered by all existing meta options, what did they shake up?
I agree with the sentiment but I don’t think we should attribute this to Vanguards
Vanguards, even if not an issue for the game itself, were extremely annoying in the perspective of the vast majority
If Fatshark actually wants people to learn the mechanics, they need to nerf inferno/soulblaze, Needle Gun, Rumbler, Taunt, PBB, Gold Toughness, Duelling Sword (again) and so and so
Focusing on Vanguards is silly IMO. Let them be irrelevant, Focus on Fatshark actually stripping the source of the issues, not on keeping 1 enemy be annoying
No idea what you mean, they pretty much exist and my Cleaver ogryn often has to stop swinging and start stabbing or pushing / fist bashing them to remove them faster and keep swinging. This is exactly how “a trash mob with a twist” must feel, not like a mini-bulwark completely breaking all your melee attack patterns until you kill all 10 of them by poking each 5-7 times personally. That’s an elite kind of bs, from a trash mob. Their design was completely busted on addition.
Funny. I feel literally the same but on the exact opposite side of the spectrum. Vermintide 2 is the meaty game for me, whereas I sometimes feel insulted by just how weak some hits sound in Darktide.
Still believe in Greathammer and Mace supremacy over the Thunderhammer and Crusher’s wet towel sounds when hitting enemy’s flesh that isn’t their head
(and add to that Vermintide 2’s blood explosions with every hit to their rotten bodies and the animation they do when their head dissapears under the blunt weaponry while in Darktide enemies just go limp when dying from blunt weapons and mace’s don’t even make blood explosions. Pathetic…)
The worst part of skitarius for me is the sound direction of their melees. What is that ‘pwah’ hit on the transonic blades it sounds awful. And the wet noodle hit noise from the vet power sword for a weapon that actually rips face up with no power button was a…choice. VT2 has a lot of great slashing and whacking noises, particularly on the axes and hammers. I don’t really like how they sound here.
But these guys were so much less disruptive than the annoying bulwarks, and way less tanky than most cope posts want to pretend they were…no where did they get HP buffs (except mortis lmao) and unless you were punching them with the freaking grenade gauntlet they did not survive multiple blows. That was so, so overstated or revealing on how not properly you were playing to start with…
Nope. Vanguards will still outright block cleaving light swings due to their hitmass.
So called “shield” enemies:
I kinda agree with Martigan’s point on this. Darktide “feels” better to a lot of people I believe because of Darktide’s improved animations, sound design and overall “feel” including the screen movement in action compared to VT2. VT2 feels a bit dated in this regard especially with the awful default screen shake/swaying. It’s entirely cosmetic but still important, I still think VT2’s combat is better though.
That but also the Darktide “movement modernization” of adding sprint, slide & vault but at least Darktide’s movement is fun to play with even though I think it’s detrimental to the game’s combat. Darktide being a 40K shooter game also contributes to the difference in perception but that’s not really my point.
Ehmm… Works as intended? You are supposed to quickly kill them, it’s a TRASH freaking mob, do you know the definition? You are hitting their weakspot with a precise thrust, having to waste extra time on killing each of them individually, being unable to just swing left-n-right with some vanguards, removing them en mass - this is exactly the niche they are supposed to fill, some “brick” in a “soft” crowd of trash which will prevent you from clearing it efficiently until you remove the “brick” with a quick and easy trick available on (almost) all weapons. That’s the whole twist, nothing more should be expected from a TRASH mob.