You are failing to understand there is ammo literally everywhere in Auric. It’s not until you get into havoc. Where it’s heavily reduced. This isn’t even a conversation worth having. The game should not be balanced around havoc. If it was, then the rest of the game would be extremely easy, while removing the whole point of having havoc in the first place.
I have never heard anyone say that guns trivialize the game. There are certain standouts like the plasma gun, and the needle pistol. But these weapons are effectively in a class of their own. Reducing the total number of ammo is ridiculous ask in the first place. Because the main reason to have range weapons is to deal with gunners. In considering the fact that the vast majority of of range weapons in the game aren’t that good. You’re just pouring gasoline on a fire. The Las Guns, completely outclasses the Auto Guns, and so by getting rid of survivalists altogether, you’re just making the auto guns even worse.
This is without acknowledging that melee dominates the game for the majority of classes, the strongest builds are pure melee. There is no reason to try, and go out of your way to purposely nerf survivalist because range builds exist.
Keep in mind, this is already after, it got nerfed from 10% to 5%, now, down to 1%, it might be the most nerfed skill in the entire game.
changing how survivalist works is a prequisite to having an actual healthy ammo economy in darktide, but not the only one
also try playing pickpocket with an infantry autogun, a weapon thats completely fine without infinite ammo and say again that “ammo economy doesnt matter because ammo pickups exist”
in reality, ammo pickups exist because ammo economy was supposed to matter, design wise. weapons are strong but ammo is scarce
I can’t take any of what you said seriously. Is there some Dev Blog talking about the importance of ammo conservation? I doubt it. The game is in a completely different state from when it first launched. By the way veteran had survivalist at the launch of the game before skill trees were even added. It was 10% per elite and specialist.
This comes across like “If you dont find it in the map then its cheating.”
Like this while argument feel so dumb. Are we gonna get rid of the heal corruption aura off of Zealot? Are we gonna remove stimms from Hive Scum?
Also who cares if you have slightly more or less ammo? Oh I know, all the players who have range builds. Every single class, that has a dedicated range build built into the talent tree. Like are we serious?
Even in Auric, even with a survivalist veteran. You can still run out of ammo. Removing survivalist does nothing. You’re not even guaranteed to have a survivalist veteran in your team.
And honestly, if you wanted to actually nerf survivalist as much as possible. You would reduce the amount of elite and specialist spawns, but I doubt you wanna do that.
i dont know why you insist on putting up the stupidest fuccken strawman arguments i have seen in my entire life. i’m arguing that ammo scarcity is a good thing in this genre and especially this game, how on earth are you going off about hive scum stimms? are you okay?
acting like ammo economy is not a factor on game balance is just crazy talk. you completely ignored the pickpocket point because it proves me right
First you said that survivalist is a game changer, and I agree. It gives some breathing room to the team and it feels specially impactful because most auras are useless.
Then you said these last posts that ammo doesn’t matter. It’s literally everywhere. Survivalist is not that big of a deal.
Ok so can we remove it then?
Which one is it?
Personally I like survivalist, so much that I don’t play ranged builds without veterans because it feels like griefing.
…I would give ammo regen to all the ranged builds in the game period.
Ammo economy is absolutely a non factor. The strongest builds in the game are melee, even on veteran the gunner class. Melee is still his strongest build.
I’m not strawmanning you. I’m merely repeating back what you’re saying. In a different context to show you how ridiculous it is.
If anyone’s been straw manning, it’s been you, you’ve been completely ducking my arguments the entire time. You take one sentence. I said, that’s not even in context of what I was saying to a wider point, then make that your entire counterpoint.
This isn’t cod zombies, this isn’t left for dead. This is a melee focus game where range weapons are provided a role to deal with other range or specialist units.
In Vermintide 2, several careers can generate ammo or achieve infinite shooting. Ranger Veteran, which passively spawns ammo caches, Waystalker, which passively regens ammo over time, and Huntsman which refunds ammo on headshots. Bounty Hunter is almost exclusively geared towards range gameplay. Outcast Engineer as an infinite ammo crank gun. That’s all while ignoring the caster class, which technically would have infinite ammo.
All this has been done before. I’m sure the devs have a clear intention. You’re the one trying to argue against it. For some misguided purpose to achieve an invisible balance. That you made up.
explain how hive scum stimms or purity aura are related to ammo scarcity. i’m not talking about anyhting but ammo, the constant out of whack comparisons to things that don’t affect ammo economy are crazy. try comparing to other ammo talents if anything.
the devs have acknowledged themselves that they’re working towards improving the game and addressing outliers
your argument that “because it’s this way now it’s what the devs want” is 100% directly counteracted by what the devs actually do and say
Explain how you completely dodge my argument again.
I’m convinced this is rage bait.
Our long-term goal is to bring these elements back into better alignment. We want to preserve the intensity of the combat, while making it more stable, more readable, and more supportive of different builds and loadouts. This means toning down the most extreme of enemy scenarios, while also addressing a small number of player power outliers that have been shaping our encounter design.
This dev blog has nothing to do with range combat at all. They don’t even mention it once.
As for the statement about purity and hivescum, if your whole argument is that scarcity is a good thing. Then why are we getting free corruption removal? Why are we getting free stems. This would even extend to grenades technically. And yes all this has to do with ammo, because something that you have to find in the map, otherwise you remove any type of generation or something that is given to you from the map you have inadvertently reduced the “scarcity” of that item. I am taking your argument to its logical conclusion.
As for the me defending the devs, they can make missteps, trying to cater to people who are constantly complaining about balance and what not. This being one of those instances if they removed survivalists because like, ten people complain about it would be a huge misstep, because that’s not a problem. This happens a lot in game development, where the devs will initially do something to counteract a momentary issue, to later add or remove something entirely that completely makes the immediate change. Pointless. We’ve been down this dog and pony show before when people were saying that the veterans shouldn’t be allowed to generate grenades. Even though it’s a core part of veterans identity.
shows how much attention you pay, that patch heavily nerfed certain range builds via uncanny changes
i never talked about scarcity in general, just ammo scarcity. you’re hallucinating again
PS: the reason i don’t reply to your whole posts is because you type up like 20 really stupid things thta have nothing to do with what i said like that. like you’re hallucinating bro
You’re saying I’m hallucinating, I literally just read back through the entire Dev Blog, not once does it bring up anything about range damage. The closest it gets is unironically talking about the Flame Staff.
I never accused you of talking only about scarcity in general, I am saying that’s the logical conclusion we would end up at, cause if it’s ammo, now then it’ll be grenades later. And then it’ll be corruption damage not being important. Then, it’ll be hivescum having too many stimms. This is a can that is getting kicked down in endless road.
Are you slow? What does uncanny have to do with range damage. Uncanny is exclusively a melee blessings. Even if you were to hypothetically apply brittleness to an enemy to then swap to your range weapon to then dps makes zero sense, unless you’re doing that on a boss which in that case, anything goes. It would only really matter if you were mag dumping a Bolter.
Even somehow if in someway that uncanny does in fact, affect range builds. What does that have to do with survivalists? NOTHING. because range damage isn’t an issue. Ammo is not an issue. Because again the strongest build are melee PERIOD.
you’re trying to talk about what this change did or why it’s relevant, but you don’t even know how uncanny worked before it. your opinion is pretty meaningless because you fundamentally lack knowledge. the correct choice in your case would be to ask someone to explain it to you, not pretend you’re an expert and call me stupid.
look up the dunning kruger effect, that’s you. too stupid to realize you’re stupid. sad!
1.) I wasn’t saying that survivalist is good because it generates ammo. I said, survivalist is good because it’s the only good aura on veteran. Thus making all the other auras useless.
2.) Survivalist is basically useless in anything that isn’t havoc. Because ammo is so abundant. If you picked up every single ammo bag, crate and tin you and use the default las gun build, you’d be shooting for probably almost like ten minutes straight. That’s how much ammo is in the map.
3.) As for your anecdotal statement, sure if you are playing an ammo.Hungry, build, and you’re snatching all the ammo, so your team doesn’t get anything then yes having one veteran with survivalist can help alleviate the burden you’re putting on your team. But your teams melee is still going to outpace the amount damge you deal with a purely range focused build.
this is how vt2 made ranged builds work and that is how they probably should work. conditional ammo replenishment as a class mechanic is good, and balancing it is very straight forward. having it tied to an aura on 1 player on the team is bad design, because now either ranged classes are high and dry without it, or have way too much with it because they doubled up.
i feel that this is pretty straight forward logic and not worth this back and forth in the first place
The the stupid amount of rending it used to do was not that beneficial to range builds. It was pretty much only exclusively for stacking dots like bleed and burn. one tapping crushers with dueling sword aswell.
I know how it worked. That has nothing to with range damage. If anything I would argue the opposite, uncanny getting nerf was the best thing for range builds, cause it allows them to actually try to compete.
i’m glad you looked it up instead of continuing to spout uninformed takes, but there were ranged builds that relied on it, a popular vet one with the double barrel shotty for example
the fact is that fatshark continues to balance the game and “if they didn’t like it then they wouldn’t have added it” is a moot point. they’ve done many things they later reverted or toned down, even concerning ranged builds.
also survivalist has in fact been nerfed since it released which is your proof right there that fatshark does seem to agree that ammo economy is a factor worth balancing. because it is. because weapons have limited ammo for a reason. how could you even possibly begin to think that it doesn’t matter when it comes to game balance?
I’ve mentioned several times it’s been nerfed, which is all the more reason why it doesn’t need to be touched anymore.
As for your double barrel shotgun, build that I’ve seen, like four people in my entire time playing the game use. It couldn’t have been that good. Its the double barrel. You could use almost literally anything else, like the bolter or the plasma gun. In fact, I’d say that one of the the of the strongest and overlooked guns in the game is the bolt pistol.
Again, stacking dots was infinitely stronger. Then some guy running around with the Vraks Infantry Autogun
something being changed once doesn’t mean it’s now in the perfect state it should remain in.
i think the underlying misunderstanding you have is that you think i think it’s op and needs to be nerfed. i think realistically it doesn’t actually cause that many issues outside of edge cases with e.g. the rumbler. i’m saying it’s bad game design, and causes two different types of ammo economy balance. one with vet, one without. if the game is balanced around with, you have too little without. if the game is balanced around without, you have too much with. maybe very deliberate tuning could fix that too, but they haven’t managed it yet, many ranged builds still feel bad without a vet on the team.
many ranged builds suck and dont have enough ammo BECAUSE survivalist exists. PBB ogryn was one of them before the recent buffs. now it’s overpowered with a vet present. exactly what i mean.
