I just got a bit back in the game after a few months break.
I’m sorry to whom’s playstile has been affected, I’m sure there is a lot, but this changes are healthy for the game.
Putting aside the debate that you should or should not be allowed to play gun only, certainly you shouldn’t be allowed to do so with evry gun in the game. Furthermore this change reduces kickback and rumbler spams that have been benefitting a bit too much of the ammo sustain.
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It’s literally in the same series as Vermintide. It’s a melee-shooter hybrid, it was always intended this way. If you want to run around and shoot your gun constantly, there are hundreds if not thousands of titles to do this, where as there is only ONE game series with melee combat like this. The entire game is built around the idea that guns are for some niche roles and melee for others.
You fundamentally do not understand this game and your opinion is absolutely worthless here. Thankfully, I am certain the devs understand this.
You fundamentally do not understand the setting and still your opinion is just as valuable as mine or that of any other paying customer. Given how hard the devs work to ignore crafting feedback I‘m actually uncertain wether they understand this.
That said if you‘d take your time to actually read what I wrote you may notice that your statement this time doesn’t necessarily contradict mine.
Obviously a good build will have one weapons choices strengths cover the weaknesses of the other. And yes even ranged focused builds will run into situations where meleeing is mandatory. Still in a 40k game builds where shooting is your main thing and melee only an emergency tool should be as viable (on an Astra militarum vet at least) as builds centred on melee with only switching to ranged in an emergency.
And thus I don’t welcome the hard nerf that o ammo regen and would wildly prefer a solution in which the ammo regen becomes vet exclusive.
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Honestly I think this line has gotten pretty blurry even going back to VT2. Huntsman ammo sustain and kit let you play very heavily ranged if you have the skill for it. I’m not one of those players but I’ve definitely played with them. WS can shoot an insane amount. Even BH can be built for a lot of sustained ranged play if that’s what you want (not saying it’s the best way to play him but it’s an option). Ranger Vet with one talent investment can basically poop out enough ammo for the whole team.
Honestly VT2 was debatably much more generous with ammo, we don’t even have blessings for sustain in DT. It even had options for ranged trash clear focused builds which again not necessarily advisable but were functional and weren’t limited so much by ammo as needing to cover the weakness of your trash/berserker focused ranged weapon with your melee or rely on team mates for crucial jobs.
It gets tricky in DT because in general guns are more flexible for more roles which means not having ammo issues would allow you to deal with way more threats without the use of your melee weapon.
Like why is Ranger Vet generating crazy amounts of ammo for their team ok but pre nerf survivalist Vet isn’t? I think mainly because there is no plasma/kickback/Rumbler level ranged weapon for it to feed. Having access to the closest equivalent, trollhammer, is mutually exclusive to running Ranger Vet in your party.
That said I don’t think there’d be an issue with Vet getting more sustain just for themself. I don’t think having one class be able to play like 70/30 ranged/melee split would be inherently problematic, though as hinted above plasma being brought down a bit (nothing dramatic please put down your pitchfork) would be a wise pairing for such a change if implemented.
Really as long as good melee skills are still a requirement for top difficulty (I do think this much is a core aspect of Tide games) I don’t see an inherent issue with having an option for doing a lot of shooting. I do think this is something that also requires careful tuning on the ammo reserve of many weapons.
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The problem with ranged in a 'Tide game, though, is just that it’s too safe and powerful. If ranged weapons were heavily nerfed against Carapace Armor would help.
You bring up Huntsman, but no one thought that class was in a healthy state in VT2’s heyday. All of the ranged classes in VT2 were pretty bonkers and broken, and many were heavily nerfed. Among the highest-tier players, the ammo sustain issue was always a problem. Honestly? For best balance there should just be no ammo sustain aside from pickups. Limiting ammo to force players to play well and make decisions is a tried-and-true method that even worked great in VT1.
Yeah, this is a good point, and even then one of the most effective classes in high-level play was Ranger Vet or Huntsman. Blunderbuss or Grudgeraker could just wipe everything except Chaos Warriors, which you could easily plan for with your melee. There’s a lot of True Solos out there by that level of player.
For ranged combat to be emphasized more in DT, you’d need to have commensurate pressure to give it risk. Right now the game just does not spawn enough enemies to make this the case. If it did, I’d be interested in seeing what could be done with it. As it is, it’s actually bad for the game and players since people lean on it like a crutch and so don’t learn how to actually handle melee. You see it all the time with Plasma Gunners - as soon as they get in a bad situation they crumple like tissue paper. Same with a lot of Psyker spammers. And this doesn’t mean they’re bad, Psyker’s staves are so OP that the first True Duos done in DT relied on them.
Not much of a point when a niche can be as wide as “anything but horde enemies”, or it can even include horde enemies too.
Naturally there’s guns which would be best used only against some enemies but what are you going to do when the next room is filled with shooters and you brought a gun to only kill specials and elites? Not shoot them? Obviously not.
A bit ironic that, given that that’s another opinion.
And that is the precise point that puts your take to bed here. If the amount of gun usage was the same between a fantasy and a sci-fi setting, someone got either setting horrendously wrong.
I can easily remember times where having a gun didn’t make me feel safe so this isn’t true as a baseline.
This is whataboutism and can’t lead to a logical conclusion.
Ammo sustain used to be too good in VT2s past (eventhough you can still have a decent expectation of having infinite ammo with a lot of ranged classes) so now it needs to be worse in a different title, in a new setting? Make it make sense for me.
And would you look at that; we’ve come to the same conclusion again!
Vet generating ammo for the power weapons on other classes, not fine.
Vet generating ammo for himself, perfectly fine.
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I really don’t know how people always parrot the idea that ranged is this like super safe playstyle , not to be rude but have you tried to go primarily ranged?
You have to deal with a constant horde trying to close the gap and this issue is even larger if you don’t have someone in your team to meet the horde in melee, while you could kite eventually you would hit a wall trying to go back.
Also the game definitely spawns more than enough threats to deal with ranged players.
We have two specials that are faster than the player whose whole point is to incapacitate you (Mutants and dogs + big groups of them in maelstrom)
Ranged enemies always spawning in groups and are definitely more dangerous in range than in melee (Shotgunners, Gunners and regular shooters)
We have bulwarks that have a shield that blocks attack with ranged weapons and allow enemies to move up to you by blocking your shots (Plasma being the exception and bolter being able to stun)
Also let’s not forget how annoying it is to shoot ranged enemies when there are poxwalkers on top of you especially when the enemy you’re trying to shoot is a special that need to be dealt with fast like trappers.
AND you can’t block or shove while your gun is out so a layer of defence is also gone.
Also the need to reload which melee weapons don’t need to (could argue that activating chain weapons/power swords is a form of reload)
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Yeah thats what I meant when I said ranged enemies are more dangerous in range than in melee
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It seems I completely misread that part, I must had been tired or something.
In my opinion that’s a discussion with “more level”
Do you think the Kickback and Rumbler spam was bad? Well, for me the aura could affect Veteran only, like a passive
Do you think certain weapons are balanced around ammo attrition? Well, for me we could directly nerf those weapons’ ammo pool (so the aura’s % regen would be less efficient)
I mean, we can discuss about if the nerf is good or bad (imo bad), necessary or unnecessary (imo unnecessary)… but, if it’s good and necessary, it must be well thought… because currently it damages the wrong builds
I loved to play a niche build: Exe Stance with “highlight every ranged enemy” + IAG
A decisely non-meta (I mean, there are a lot of people asking for an Exe Stance buff) but fun build, precisely designed to use the ult as much as you can, spot enemies and clear the ranged threat
That build now is dead
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I played like 5 vet missions on that exact build today, with agripina iag. What makes it dead?
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Yes, it was bad. Same was bad plasma spam. I think having it anyway as a veteran only passive is also bad if you want veterans to have access to weapons like plasma and bolter.
They most definitely are, but to nerf them because survivalist exist is completely wrong. What if you don’t have a veteran on the team then? If then a veteran doesn’t choose survivalist isn’t he doing a bad one to the team? Auras ate not meant to bring a huge impact to the players but to provide some little extra to the team.
In my experience autoguns have not been affected much by this change.
Utterly false. If you shoot at every highlighted enemy, you will finish the ammo
I disagree. Plasma, when compared with meta weapons like IAG and Revolvers, is perfectly balanced
Bolter is even a weak weapon, lol
For this reason I’d like to see the ammo regen a Veteran passive… because other chacters ammo economy can’t depend on Veterans’ presence
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Are you playing solo? In the game there are 4 players.
They can take care of some enemy too.
And even if hypothetically you would really have a near 100% uptime if exe stance and shoot at any enemy, then you would have access to any ammo pickup in the map because your teammates would barley need to shoot. And that would be more than enough unless you want to use your gun even to clear poxes.
Plasma it’s definitely one of the strongest weapon right now. And bolter is absolutely very strong. Range weapons have roles, exactly like melee, the problem is that vet has too many ways to push other weapons outside theyr boundaries making guns like Revolvers and IAGs super effective against everything with the consequence that bolter looks outdated.
Extreme ammo rigen like before it’s bad even if only for the veterans, resource management is one of the skills that should be cultivated.
Oh boy.
There’s no need to complicate the matter. Before the nerf, with that build, I could shoot everything the Stance highlighted… if I do it now, I’ll run out of ammo. Sure, if I steal all the ammo pickups, I can still do it, but if my mates take the ammo too, nope
Plasma is meta, yep, I said it, still not overpower and so no needing an ammo nerf via aura nerf
Bolter is weak regardless the other weapons. The other disadvantages are fine, the draw time kills it, because you can’t use it when you really need (example: surrounded in a bad situation)
Disagree. First: resources =/= only ammo. There are others things too. Then, in a shooter game, it’s perfectly fine to have one single character ables to shoot a lot. It’s about variety, fun and personal tastes
Seems like very good change for the game then, now other players can have fun shooting and not only you.
I disagree, now that the aura has been nerfed is in much more balanced state.
It may be a matter of taste, but the point of build diversity is to use different tools to face the same situations, for example voice of command or frag grenades are good tools to use when surrounded. You can also argue that you can use tools to prevent getting surrounded in the first place and that would be the best course of action.
Yes there are many other resources, having one character that can compleatly ignore the management of one of them feels quite cheesy to me. And the Veteran is still very much able to shoot a lot.
Be mindful that pre nerf, in auric games, survivalist could easily translate in more than double ammo reserves even if just for the veterans that’s insane strong.
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I back you up on this one. Managed to run out at the hab dreyko end event just by shooting at specials/elites (AuricSTG). Weapon is no longer viable in a shooter focused build, unless the team funnels all the ammo into you.
I back you up on this as well. Plasma is cracked an probably could use some rebalancing (lower damage on normal shot increase damage on charged shot), but compared to other meta weapons it’s fine.
Bolter is horrible on Vet. Before the ammo nerf it was usable on a Focus Fire! build, and the whole build was pretty mid, playable but B tier at most. Now it’s again unusable outside of bursting bosses on a dedicated build.
Just make Veteran have Scavenger at base or increase the base ammo pool on Vet by 60%. Kinda dumb we can’t have one class as gun focused.
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Having enough ammo doesn’t mean stealing all the enemies
Apart that I could be the only ranged guy in the team and therefore, even if I hypothetically and instanly eliminated all the ranged enemies, I wouldn’t steal anything…
…but then it’s also possible to shoot to these blessed ranged enemies together 
… not to mention that, even a veteran with hypotheticall infinite ammo, at certain moments of the match, must switch to melee to defend itself. So, usually, while one character has the enemy pressure on it in melee, other one can shoot… and at the next clutch the roles may be exchanged, etc etc
Anyway that’s all empty talk: the game vomits entire platoons of ranged enemies at us, every open space is literally full of them, the danger of killing too many and leaving the others stranded… it’s literally utopian and fun
“To me” here it’s the key words… but it’s a normal thing, instead. The Psyker can also ignore the ammo resource. The Zealot can (and will) ignore the healing resource. Obviously not totally, but that’s not even the veteran
And if we also want to take Vermintide into consideration, there are even more evident cases
The beauty of variety is precisely this… each character has pros and cons and being able to ignore a limited resource is something you may or may not like, but objectively plausible in the dynamics of the game
Maybe… but what I see is that, if you use an ult/build that allows you to highlight ranged enemies because that is your role, and therefore you play accordingly, you run out of ammo
I’ll pass on the weapon balancing discussion… it’s practically offtopic and I’ve already talked about it a lot in other threads
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