SotT is a far inferior "support" class if she ignores damage talents

[Frostysir]

@Kitten

Hyperbole. I’ve literally been soloing Cata+ with it and having no problem finding uses in almost every situation.

Having a build that does most of the work leaving you safe enough to use the crappy weapon does not mean the crappy weapon is any good. Handmaiden bladedancer builds to clear hordes, steroid build to just brute force any weapon into working, waystalker hagbane etc.

@Kitten

You’re generalizing your argument after initially basing it off about 3 situational downsides, which I’ve argued can be fixed with being mindful of the ability.

Generalizing? I am realistic, again.

Vast majority of maps wont offer such nice spots that lets you trap the boss into standing on the wall until it explodes, and commonly your teammates wont have the peace and space to kite a boss around the wall with enemies pouring in from all directions.

You just said " be mindful of the terrain and look for spots" which sounds like a lot of bogus to me. Especially given how few maps actually dont offer multiple points of access for enemies to walk around.

@Kitten

A few seconds can be everything. That’s why Stagger mechanics exist in this game. Speaking of which.

That it can be, but, if you dont kill enemies in that space you will generally just be back in that spot a few seconds later.

@Kitten

It Staggers once on use, and once again when it disappears.

Only if they are standing pretty much on the wall when it goes away, how often will that happen in a moving fight? How often can you just stand in the same spot with specials around?

How often will enemies actually pile up ontop of eachother so much that you can make a meaningful difference with a wall?

@Kitten

This is such a vague argument, based on about 1 area in the majority of maps where it would be an issue. In which case it can still be used to Stagger and delay enemies.

Your statements are hella vague too!

@Kitten

You’re moving the goal posts and ignoring the main crux of my argument about the wall and the reason for this thread.

I am doing a comparison, the wall is generally useless for blocking enemies and the stagger is so light while the followup is so weak that it just doesnt help most of the time.

Even a bit of bad luck with specials and suddenly that wall isnt helping your team at all but helping enemies instead. Bloodrazor meanwhile just kills things which is very straightforward but also very helpful.

Plus, if you do a bad funnel you are just promoting hyperdensity which is a problem all on it´s own. And if you obscure sight too much then specials get a free pass to close up on your team which is extremely deadly in many cases.

Heck some specials like gasrats/Stormers can just ignore the walls at times and just do their thing anyway.

[warget]

@SlashKex

Please no auras. The problem with auras in this game is that they are tiny and having to hug your teammates constantly is not fun. Just keep it teamwide.

Then I would say, that all other auras have to get the same treatment. Otherwise it is kind of unfair.

[SlashKex]

As far as I am aware aura range has never been touched so I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you.

[warget]

Well, it actually was.
Since there is a talent for Foot Knight that doubles the radius of his aura

[Frostysir]

@Rapax

• +25% healing now only affects SotT, but not allies.
• Switch the “excess tmp hp gained by allies goes to SotT” passive with “excess tmp hp gained by SotT goes to allies”

Doesnt this promote a style where she has to go for kills as much as possible still? To help her team at all? And it likely ends up as being less helpful than the present iteration if her damage gets rightfully nerfed?

I dont think it´s a good idea.

[Kitten]

@SlashKex

TL;DR → Her damage far outweighs her utility and you are actively gimping yourself by trying to play support. Your support as a damage dealer is much impactful than any support build her kit currently allows.

I agree with it being more impactful. Especially when the DPS options are so strong.

That doesn’t make the support option not viable though. I’m specifically talking about why playing it as a support works.

The general argument of damage being better than anything else doesn’t mean you can’t play a different playstyle and enjoy it. If anything I’d argue most of the issues in terms of that argument stem from power creep with damage/stagger on 2 of the newer Careers and some of the newer Weapons (some of the old ones too).

@Frostysir

Having a build that does most of the work leaving you safe enough to use the crappy weapon does not mean the crappy weapon is any good. Handmaiden bladedancer builds to clear hordes, steroid build to just brute force any weapon into working, waystalker hagbane etc.

The wall is completely viable and usable for many functions.

@Frostysir

Generalizing? I am realistic, again.

No, you generalized your argument, implying that this would be an issue almost constantly, when in reality it depends what you’re using it for. Even if you can’t use it for one thing, it still does the others. If you don’t see a wide Stagger, regardless of everything else, as a good thing, then I don’t know if it’s worth continuing.

@Frostysir

Vast majority of maps wont offer such nice spots

@Frostysir

You just said " be mindful of the terrain and look for spots" which sounds like a lot of bogus to me.

This applies to almost any multiplayer game ever though. You have to force situations where your kit becomes stronger.

Our group has had no issue, before SoTF and after SoTF, to use terrain and other mechanics to combo Ults or CC with each other.

Again, a you problem.

@Frostysir

That it can be, but, if you dont kill enemies in that space you will generally just be back in that spot a few seconds later.

Huh?

@Frostysir

Only if they are standing pretty much on the wall when it goes away, how often will that happen in a moving fight?

It staggers them when you initially put it down.

Please acknowledge that it staggers enemies TWICE.

Your inability to make use of it doesn’t mean it doesn’t work.

@Frostysir

How often will enemies actually pile up ontop of eachother so much that you can make a meaningful difference with a wall?

All the time?

@Frostysir

Your statements are hella vague too!

Nope.

@Frostysir

I am doing a comparison

It’s irrelevant to the discussion though. The support options with the wall are completely viable regardless of the damage options being better.

@Frostysir

stagger is so light

What? It can stagger however many Elites are stacked where you place it and then force them out of LoS. It then staggers again.

I’ve already responded to your other points.

@Lord_Giggles

@Lord_Giggles

I really don’t agree on wall though, I think it’s a fairly bad ult on most maps. You just end up delaying enemies by a second or so, which isn’t really valuable when they all just run around it at the same time. Maybe if it was less tall it would be better, but as it is now I think it’s actually one of the only ults that can make things actively worse if you use it poorly.

Much like Mei on Overwatch, I think that it’s completely down to the individual learning curve and then your groups learning curve. I think this ability for Cata+ is really good. My only downside is the 10 second Talent, which could be changed imo.

[Lord_Giggles]

@warget

I’d argue that it needs to just be an aura

God, please no more auras. Trying to micromanage a tiny radius around you so that it actually has any value at all is just obnoxious.

@Kitten

The staff is really insane for CCing any Specials. It’s absolutely fine.

For CCing anything honestly, with the amount of thp she gets in some builds you can basically just remove huge chunks of mixed hordes from the game, even all the way up into dwons+. That might be less valuable in live content though, where the ability to ignore stagger resist isn’t quite as big a deal.

I really don’t agree on wall though, I think it’s a fairly bad ult on most maps. You just end up delaying enemies by a second or so, which isn’t really valuable when they all just run around it at the same time. Maybe if it was less tall it would be better, but as it is now I think it’s actually one of the only ults that can make things actively worse if you use it poorly.

Edit: Also enemies regularly spawn all around you, which makes wall kind of pointless, and in situations where you’ve made the spawns fairly linear it tends to just encourage hyperdensity, from what I’ve seen.

[Frostysir]

@Kitten

The wall is completely viable and usable for many functions.

Sure it can be used, problem is it isnt particularly good at all.

@Kitten

No, you generalized your argument, implying that this would be an issue almost constantly, when in reality it depends what you’re using it for. Even if you can’t use it for one thing, it still does the others. If you don’t see a wide Stagger, regardless of everything else, as a good thing, then I don’t know if it’s worth continuing.

Wide stagger? That thing is not very wide at all, go into game and look at the circle on the ground before you cast.

@Kitten

This applies to almost any multiplayer game ever though. You have to force situations where your kit becomes stronger.

This game actively forces you to move forward if you want to progress though, that means you cant hold on to “good spots” unlike in a FPS or something.

@Kitten

Our group has had no issue, before SoTF and after SoTF, to use terrain and other mechanics to combo Ults or CC with each other.

Premades have a ton of advantages that normal groups dont, arguing balance around them is about as wrong as can be short of balancing the game around dwons or something.

@Kitten

Huh?

Say you´ve a horde coming in with 5 elites in a cluster upfront, you smack a wall on them and force them to split…but now all you´ve done is maybe give yourself space to kill 1 but the rest are still there and the horde is still hot on their heels.

Bloodrazor would in a similar spot have killed 2 at the very least, possibly all 5 at best.

@Kitten

It staggers them when you initially put it down.
Please acknowledge that it staggers enemies TWICE .

How does it help that it staggers twice for 1 second? They´ll be steady again before i can land more than 1 hit at best.

@Kitten

All the time?

Then we play very differently because i find that at best i just get a bit of space but then i still got a fat horde running around the wall to pile on me.

@Kitten

The support options with the wall are completely viable regardless of the damage options being better.

Anything is viable, question is, is it good? The wall generally are not.

@Kitten

What? It can stagger however many Elites are stacked where you place it and then force them out of LoS. It then staggers again.

The stagger being light doesnt mean it doesnt affect many targets, it does, but it goes away so quickly it´s basically irrelevant unless there is a very large number of them to split up.

@Kitten

Much like Mei on Overwatch,

Difference here is that overwatch is a FPS with a lot of shooting going on which infinitely raises the value of a wall that can shelter the team. There is a reason a character like genji with his sword out is really dangerous when he gets into melee.

[Rapax]

@Frostysir

Doesnt this promote a style where she has to go for kills as much as possible still?

That is the idea, she would have to actually play the game now and engage in melee to get hp instead of getting carried by her teammates’ tmp generation feels wrong for a support class, it should be the other way around.

Keep in mind that +25% healing makes health on kill more sustainable even without strong damage talents to secure tons of elite kills, and hp on crit/hs still exists.
All in all, it is more of an issue with her tmp talents not fitting a support class than this suggestion being out of place imo.
Especially when she can be combined with a Merc/Rv/Uc to get her more tmp hp, which in turn would give everyone more tmp hp back.
Such synergies would feel more thematic and create more of a support class that actually interacts with the rest of the team instead of being a leech that only takes but does not give back.

[Lord_Giggles]

@Kitten

Much like Mei on Overwatch, I think that it’s completely down to the individual learning curve and then your groups learning curve.

Mei is mostly valuable because she can cut individual people off from their team, force awkward positioning/deny angles and block cooldowns (assuming we’re just talking about her wall obvs). I don’t think it’s very comparable, enemies here just run around the wall, and cutting particular elites/specials off is done way better by staff anyway.

Wall can have some value on maps with more narrow areas, but I think it’s pretty niche still there, especially if you’re not including deathwish stuff in this discussion. Blocking people off when you can just shove them or immediately DPS them down isn’t that valuable.

@Frostysir

This game actively forces you to move forward if you want to progress though, that means you cant hold on to “good spots” unlike in a FPS or something.

This is definitely not true, learning what spots are good to fight/kite in or around on each map is a huge part of being a good player. Needing to move forward doesn’t mean you can’t have good positioning.

[Frostysir]

@Rapax

That is the idea, she would have to actually play the game now and engage in melee to get hp instead of getting carried by her teammates’ tmp generation feels wrong for a support class, it should be

Except it´d be weak? With her damage cut and bad sources for THP without that damage she´s struggle to really generate enough THP for her team to notice. And if you have to bring other classes with specific builds to enable that function of hers then that´s bad all on its own.

[Frostysir]

@Lord_Giggles

This is definitely not true, learning what spots are good to fight/kite in or around on each map is a huge part of being a good player. Needing to move forward doesn’t mean you can’t have good positioning.

Of course knowing which spots are better than others is important but unlike a FPS deathmatch you cant just hang around one area with short distances because you´ve a shotgun which is good for that. No, you will inevitably end up in places where the wall just plain does practically nothing which feels awful.

Staggering a few elites for 1-2 seconds sound amazing…right until they steady up and run down on you anyway.

[GitGud]

People seem to forget that she also has that extra 50% damage on low health targets (not sure how it exactly works) so even without her steroid talent she still has decent killing power witch can define her “identity”.

[James]

@GitGud

People seem to forget that she also has that extra 50% damage on low health targets

It’s a gradual increase.
Missing enemy HP divided by 2x their full HP.
e.g You’ll be dealing 25% more damage to an enemy at 50% health.

It doesn’t really make much of a difference to trash “weaker” enemies but can reduce the number of hits needed against elite enemies, though your mileage depends on weapon breakpoints.
It doesn’t appear to affect DoTs.

[SlashKex]

@Kitten

That doesn’t make the support option not viable though.

100% agree. I’d just really like it if the support option would be even more viable than it is right now.

[Rapax]

@Frostysir

Except it´d be weak? With her damage cut and bad sources for THP without that damage she´s struggle to really generate enough THP for her team to notice. And if you have to bring other classes with specific builds to enable that function of hers then that´s bad all on its own.

It’s a matter of balance, but the suggestion of making her excess tmp hp go to allies should also not make her team healing too strong or she could float an entire team with tmp hp, all too easily turning them into “discount Zealots” that happily engage in hit trading.

Now, would it be too strong or too weak?
I don’t know, it’s hard to tell while she is still so busted that her own tmp generation hardly comes into play/is so muddled by her overtuned damage output.

@Rapax

Keep in mind that +25% healing makes health on kill more sustainable even without strong damage talents to secure tons of elite kills, and hp on crit/hs still exists.

I agree that, even with the extra healing, those tmp talents are not all that amazing for a support class, although talents like Pale Queen’s Choosing still help with that.

Additionally, other talents could get reworked to add to her support role, e.g. the wall could have a healing aoe aura as a lvl 30 talent
(Basically shifting her focus a bit, less damage focused, more support focused as others have suggested, e.g. Radiance Inheritance being a weaker, but teamwide buff etc.)

Overall, SotT does still have damage oriented talents like more power, more attack speed etc. that would enable her to go for a pseudo dps build like Ib/Fk.
She could still use health on kill or on crit/hs even with her 3 most potent damage talents (Morai Heg’s Doomsight, Bloodrazor Thicket, Radiance Inheritance) nerfed.

Concerning her bad tmp generation in general:

Her current tmp hp design is heavily flawed.

If she did not have:

• Her outrageous damage output to enable hp on kill
• The obscene amount of crits due to Morai Heg’s Doomsight to enable hp on crit
• Her +25% healing passive …

=> … she would be totally reliant on her team generating tmp hp for her with the current iteration of her “leech excess tmp hp” passive.

That’s one underlying issue with her design:

• Her tmp hp talents are gimped and the 2 health related passives (extra healing + leech excess tmp hp) serve as a bandaid to ensure her tmp hp generation is not abysmal.

(Of course, this applies only IF she did not have the overtuned dps/amount of crits, which should get nerfed).

[Drakonhammer]

Access to her “make the bad man fly” staff is a large part of her support imho.

Beyond that I agree with @Kitten. She honestly feels like a very fitting support for the wutelgi, ignoring the fact her damage output is downright broken atm and her staff maybe should have an energy cost related to the mass of the enemy it lifts (e.g. weaker enemies should be easier to levitate and you shouldn’t be able to levitate a whole patrol’s worth of chaos warriors at once)

[Frostysir]

@Rapax

I don’t know, it’s hard to tell while she is still so busted that her own tmp generation hardly comes into play/is so muddled by her overtuned damage output.

I went and…ehm, “tested” that out in solo cata QP when all my bots were on leave. From what i can tell her own generation is not all that high except during radiance which is a moot case.

Even if you raise that by 25% she still wont generate much if radiance takes a significant enough hit.

@Rapax

Pale Queen’s Choosing

I tried using this for a few runs but honestly…10 throws take 80 seconds at best and that´s 30 health, one clanrat wandering up behind you can do like 40-50.

@Rapax

Her tmp hp talents are gimped and the 2 health related passives (extra healing + leech excess tmp hp) serve as a bandaid to ensure her tmp hp generation is not abysmal.

(Of course, this applies only IF she did not have the overtuned dps/amount of crits, which should get nerfed).

I agree and it worries me a fair bit too.

[Cheshire]

Radiant Inheritance should be completely reworked into a support talent, such as doubling the healing effect of her healing increase passive for the duration. Her ult should be transparent or easier to see through and allow allies to attack and shoot through it. Her damage ult should do as described and still create a wall on a shorter duration and the damage lowered. I think with these simple changes she would be in a much better place.

[BizarreSalp]

If they intend her to be just a support, then yeah, that would do it. I don’t think totally killing the current way she can be played is a good move, though. Sure, it needs to be reigned in, but the career is also fun.

Her current incarnation actually seems to fit the lore Sisters of the Thorn better, really. They can totally heal allies, or poison or use magic, but they prefer to kill with weapons. They’re far from battlefield doctors.