Yep, irl holding that stance is more awkward than an introvert on a blind date. As an added bonus, with the left wrist in that position stopping a hit in that stance would have a high chance of loosening your grip and hurting your wrist.
Then again, real guard stances would either take the weapon completely out of view or be too close to the normal ready stance (well, ones that are meant to be anything more than passing states, anyway). Part of the reason for a separate block stance is giving feedback to the player about their actions, so reducing that info isn’t good either.
Speaking of animations that could do with polishing, what about Mace&Sword running animation? Shield and sword/mace too for that matter given its the same.
It makes close to no sense holding a weapon in your right hand at such a wide angle, it leaves you completely open, and it looks silly. Saltzpyre’s got it right.
I think this is fine, it is basically the overhead guard, although not held over the head for some reason. Of course it needs to have the hands and weapon at least somewhat visible for blocking indication and just to look good, but maybe it could be moved a bit upwards on the screen?
As is obvious there different parring stances and the one used in game exists but isn’t universal.
I don’t know what you want with this behind your back (180°)
So I assume you meant 90° and a would agree with something between 45-90°
Well… I think it’s on the wrong side if it was with the same grip on to the left it would be more stabe and it’s what they do as well.
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I know that holing the shield close to the weapon hand is (at least one) correct style most associated with small shields.
My main criticism is that the dudes in your example seem to have no strength behind their blows (stabs).
It’s obliviously a dueling style like the longswords above and therefore not how shields where overwhelmingly used. It’s important to note that the spear 2-6m (and it’s variations) in combination with relatively large shields dominated melee in army battles throughout history (Romans used swords).
It all depends on the size of the shield and if you’re in a formation (& kind of) or not.
But I think the thing that is wrong with our shields is that you cannot attack while blocking/parrying/bashing.
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Gameplay vs reality - always go for gameplay. We already have fantasy weapons (2hd hammers ekhu ekhu maulets, oversised axes etc) Its looks maybe silly but its works, what I would change is really silly blocking like 2 hammers (it would looks better if both weapon would be infront of bardin)
I agree, and I think part of the realism conversation should be taken to the Lounge, if people want to keep on it. But there is still room for improvement on the animations, I think. And for many people (myself included) realism is indeed a big part of the aesthetics of animations in games, particularly ones that have a generally realistic look to them (like Vermintide).
Moving the hands and arms closer to the center of the body (still holding high), moving them lower, or shifting the stance to the left side variant would all work. I feel they picked the worst-working variant of that stance (at least as far as human physiology goes). Trying to do the push and push-attack from that stance also feels (and looks in-game) somewhat separated and doesn’t form a nice flow.
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It’s funny how no one in this thread has ever propose the real fighting or blocking techniques but a tonn of history enthusiasts found their duty in correcting people. People here just want to say how it could look better in game, no one claims that our suggestions are somewhat viable irl. What makes you think that you know more?
Because the actual techniques involved don’t work well in this kind of context. Real life “blocking” isn’t a static stance; it’s watching your opponent, choosing guards to counter theirs, and then either momentarily interposing your weapon with theirs (and preferably moving out of the way simultaneously) or trying to get past their guard. It’s all continuous motion, especially after one side actually attacks. From what I’ve seen, For Honor has gotten closest to the tactically realistic and dynamic side of it, and even it goes pretty far to the cinematic side of realism and stays very limited.
Not much, really. I’ve enough experience in martial arts to have a better sense of things than the average guy, and probably than the average gamer. But it’s nowhere near expertise. I also have a couple of weapons nearby so I can test some things. But ultimately, I’m just expressing my opinions here, and it’s up to the devs to decide whether to listen to me or anyone else.
And as for the suggestions’ viability IRL… You may or may not have noticed it, but that’s where your original suggestions started from, too. Markus hides behind his shield, lifting it up to his eyes as if it was his first time using one, seemingly just tossing a bunch of planks between his torso and an enemy attack - even when he’s supposedly an experienced soldier. Meanwhile the ESO warrior has put their weight behind the shield, still watching the enemy, as if preparing to receive a charge (which probably would be the case in formation).
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The point of my reply in that we don’t need real life fencing techniques. It’s like you just wanna flex with your weapon practise experience. We are talking about games here.
Well you also criticize the Vermintide animations but you base it only on your opinion how it should look aesthetically and how another game dev did it.
I completely agree that this is a game but I like to base my conclusions on something more concrete. The entire Warhammer setting is inspired by the real world, so for techniques like fencing is it not logical to try to base them on reality especially if you want to make a case for realism?
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Realism in game like Vermintide? No obviously not, we don’t need that here, we’re talking about first person action melee game where you need to kill hundrets of enemies every minute. Where you can put realism, where you need realism? You can’t add realistic animations, you need to add aesthetically pleasing animations. (it’s funny how you talking about entirety of Warhammer based on real world, where you can say that only about human factions, i can’t see the simmillarities in skaven, orcs, concsept of chaos and so on, but maybe it’s just me?)
Based and inspired are not the same thing.
So you like aesthetically pleasing animations ok.
In my opinion not basing real life counterparts on something remotely realistic will degenerate slowly. (anime abominations)
What makes Warhammer great for me is it’s dark and semirealistic spin on fantasy.
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cool. let’s invite fencing master to Fatshark to make KC:D with rats 'cause that’s what lads want, otherwise we’ll just get our Attack of titans with rats, and lads don’t want it.
Apparently there’s only two types of gameplay, and you Fatshark are going make Bayonetta out of Vermintide! Learn How To Block properly!
#HEMA#Skallagrim#gitgudatblocking
To be honest I don’t know what to make of that.
Just to be clear. I like good looking animations too but don’t you think that the real life sparing looks good?
Your elderscrolls animation is also matching quite well with IRL phalanx.
The only thing I wanted to point out was that this is a discussion and sometimes you’re pointing at holes in another persons argumentation hence having something to base one’s argument on is a good thing while getting emotional over little to nothing won’t bring the discussion forward.
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Don’t mind me, i didn’t want to offence you. I just don’t like where conversation is going right now, because point was in showing to Fatshark that their animations look bad and there is a way to improve it and also examples for it.
I was the one who started the conversation about fighting stances, different ways of using your weapon, stuff like hitting enemies with the sword hilt to deal AP damage and so on, i’d like see fighting in Vermintide deeper, i just want to keep its style. For fancing i’d better go play For Honor or KC:D.
Hope you not mad at me for my style of conversation.
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We’re really after the same thing here: to change some animations (both in first and third person) for the better (from our point of view). While you took inspiration from another game, we went to real life. Taking heed of either one would result in similar changes. So I have a hard time figuring out why you suddenly lashed out against our point of view and source of inspiration.
I repeat: Despite different sources of inspiration, it seems to me that our better animations would look pretty much the same. No one’s been against your suggestion.
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I think V2 would benefit from your suggestions - making the blocking animations look better/cooler/more aesthetic. I also think it could benefit even more from @Haxorzist´s suggestions, making it not only that, but also more realistic and therefore cooler and more badass to HEMA folks. I do not think it should turn into a second KC:D for reasons you pointed out and probably more, but I also do not think anyone here was remotely suggesting that.
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True, battlefield application of shields and shield formations is a whole another story and of course, there were other uses for shields (Roland Warzecha has other videos about that topic, too iirc) like passively protecting your back as a rider, using it as mobile cover for archery or against archers (when talking about tower shields) and of course, covering formations. In those cases, of courser the shield would primarily be used as a blockade of sorts. It is similar with Miyamoto Musashi and his dual sword style, which he himself claimed was most suitable for using on the battlefield and for duels, he prefered single weapons. Similar reflections can be found in FMA, where dual weapon techniques with two weapons of similar lengths (two machete-style weapons or staff and spear combination) being what is most suitable for mass-combat, while single-handed weaponry (or styles which encompass more western-style combinations like sword and dagger) were considered more for a duell situation.
Some principals are, however, quite universal, as you put it: If you have a shield, you don’t open up when attacking, you use it to cover as much of your body as possible and especially try not to expose your strong side (there is a reason why some styles of FMA are called “Arnis de Mano” - harness of hand, which refers to both the fact that armoured or otherwise reinforced bracers took the place of the shield over time, covering your weapon-hand with your other arm, as well as to the fact that even withouth your “harness”, even your unarmed hand is used extensively in a protective manner by deflecting incoming weaponry, blocking strikes at their arms or otherwise manipulating or stopping your opponent’s movement with your empty hand).
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Thank you, Kekmaster, very cool!
