Well it kind of is rewarding because you’ve gotta work extra hard to survive and thrive as a psyker than any other class.
This is why you’ll get a lot of epeen swinging when talking bad about the class.
Since you have to overcome the classes huge shortcomings to get somewhere either through luck rng, grind rng or working extra hard.
You also have to pick the weapon that specifically can coup, if you pick anything else, you’re dead weight and useless.
All the people defending the class, saying you need this or this specific thing to thrive and you are a noob or stupid for not using it, are completely missing the point. The class isn’t suppose to be a math problem… Your not suppose to game the class, you’re supposeto enjoy it in anyway you want.
This means all weapons and ways of playing it, should be viable even at higher tiers of play.
This is not the case with psyker.
I’m not sure how well zealots and vets coup with all weapons and combos, but I don’t see a lot of them complaining or getting killed in game when using strange weapon combos.
Ogryn is a beast, apart from the broken heavy stubber, he can use any weapon and thrive on heresy. I’m constantly switching weapons between missions on ogryn to mix it up and I’m never a lesser ogryn for doing that or a liability to my team, I function just as good with all weapons.
Leveling up the psyker was an amazing experience simply because all staffs, melee and ranged options were viable up to malice. This made it fun and engaging to play, sure you were squishy, but that added excitement and fun to it.
However as all those options and our class skill BB is simply removed in heresy, this devolves the class into a boring staff spam with zero depths and simply based on rng lottery to get the combo that actually does something.
You’ve obviously just leveled Psyker to 30 in Malice and never played outside that difficulty.
In fact a lot of people complaining about Psyker has never played outside that difficulty. They have no idea what works and what does not work. Not even something as simple as Brain Burst let alone how to reach breakpoints on Staffs.
You’re obviously incapable of talking anyone without a downward angle. Be careful, you might find it difficult to get through doorways if you keep up that attitude.
Give a zealot any melee weapon and they are best class in melee.
Give a vet any ranged weapon and they are the best ranged class
Ogryn have great cc and team support, but could probably use a few more tweaks(at least he has a couple viable weapons and builds)
And psyker simply identifies as their staff, your not a psyker, you’re a surge staff or purgatis staff with legs.
I think a class that falls apart when you take away 1 or 2 weapons is poorly balanced bc you essentially have extremely low variety of playstyle to the point where adding staves to other classes would be better game design even though it would not fit lore.
If the psyker’s staff is his whole identity, it should be their class ability like engineer in vermintide 2
I keep reading people stating that BB on Heresy and Damnation is useless.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. Yeah you stop one shooting various elites and even some specialists but that is not really a problem.
The biggest problem in Heresy and Damnation mode are shooters. Regular scab and dreg shooters and also the elite gunners and shot-gunners.
If you’ve played Heresy or Damnation enough you will know that you would take 10 ogryns and 10 ragers over a room full of 20 shooters any time of the day. In Damnation/Heresy unless you have a sharpshooter that is specifically built to handle masses of shooters (and most sharpshooters aren’t) you will find that BB is an extremely effective tool at clearing out those shooters.
Reapers and Crushers take a lot of BBs but it still very useful if you can start it from a distance you will end up with the kill or bring it down low enough for your mates to easily pick off once its close. For dealing with Bulwarks BB is also very important as it’s one of the most consistent ways to open them up (while also dealing damage at the same time).
In most situations these elites aren’t alone so it’s not like your team has the luxury to circle to their side or rear.
So yeah bottom line is that regular shooters, snipers, bombers, trappers, shotgunners, gunners are all prime targets for BB.
P.S. I used to think Pick n Mix was a silly pennance some sadistic guy with no clue of the game came up with… up until i played the Espionage Mode on the new map on Damnation. Once i reached the elevator room and 5-6 gunners + 1-2 specials ( sniper bomber) showed up at once near the end i got it just by doing what was most efficient for me at the time with the build i was running… i BBed the karking hell out of em.
So with quelling let’s say the average time to kill a regular trash gunner with BB is in the region of 4 seconds. Considering the situation you describe is likely a room with at least 20 gunners, which means hell of a lot of quelling.
So that’s roughly four seconds per trash mob. This… uh…this is what you call “an extremely effective tool”?
Sure thing, buddy.
BB isn’t literally worthless on 4 & 5. It’s just as hell a lot less useful than it ought to be, considering it takes up a grenade slot and takes up half the talent tree, and it’s supposed to be the way Psykers gain charges.
Softening up bulwarks isn’t the worst use of BB, obviously. Other stuff, though? Sure, softening up a mauler or rager or crusher isn’t a bad idea… until you start to calculate what your actual DPS is while you’re softening up those targets, and begin thinking about the DPS of other classes, and what they could have done to soften up those targets during all those seconds.
You know what happens if you remove Zealot specific weapons from Zealot? Nothing, it’s still super good with any old axe or knife.
Do you know what happens with Psyker if you remove the staves? You’ve got frack all.
Is this a “how to speed run Damnation” discussion or did i miss something?
Quelling:
i’ve seen you bring that up a lot of times… i really don’t understand why you think it’s such an issue. Are you sure you are not overquelling or misjudging how far you can push your peril level?
You quell down to 98% you are good to go for another burst. You find your self in situation where you have more downtime for whatever reason? swap to staff or sword and quell down to 30% in the amount of time most fast weapons need to reload. Your F ready to go? just keep firing until you overcharge.
Use Psykinetic’s Aura, Inner Tranquility and Kinetic Barrage. Additionaly using a high quell sword and/or staff and you will find that quelling is really not an issue specially when it comes to BB spam.
Finally BB has a super fast target aquisition which negates much if not all of the time spent on quelling.
Effectiveness:
Check the time required for any class other than Sharpshooter running Unwavering Focus (80% of them run Camo Expert) and Counterfire and also using specific weapons suited for this job to safely and effectively clear or thin out a room full of shooters. Unless the shooters are bunched up and in the open you will find that the Psyker will perform extremely well compared to the others.
Everyone else will be losing time waiting to regain toughness lost, losing time trying to clear suppression at best… at worst they will be coming out with health loss.
If you are using the appropriate feats you will be regening any toughness lost way faster as you BB the shooters.
Specials:
While overwhelmed (which you will very typically find yourself in damnation) quick swapping to BB to eliminate the trapper sniper or bomber in the background is also an invaluable use of the Burst. It’s fast and reliable. The sharpshooter again can also do this but it’s weapon dependant whereas for the psyker it’s not and also the psyker has the ability to give himself the space required to get the “shot” in easier / faster than the Veteran can.
Staves:
Yeah i agree with you on this but what’s the point exactly? There are 4 staves with completely different roles and playstyles. 3 of them are viable the Trauma either i am not seeing it’s potential or is weak.
How many viable secondaries do each of the other classes have? You think a veteran with revolver or shotgun is gonna go far? An ogryn with kickback?
It’s not about speedrunning, but not everyone plays damnation by spending an hour on every mission, clearing every room from the door before daring to walk inside. If you’re exclusively BBing from cover to clear out a room of trash from afar, then obviously being at full peril constantly isn’t an issue. I can think of any number of situations, though, where using BB to soften something or even to clutch kill a special, leaves you at full peril in the middle of hectic combat. This means you have to quell, or you can’t use your staff, nor can you rely on peril-blocking until you’ve meleed for a bit.
Not the end of the world, but it doesn’t feel good, and being at high peril at the wrong time can severely limit your options and cause mistakes to happen.
As for target aquisition being fast… uh… I suppose so? Unless there’s even a tiny bit of geometry in the way. Targeting something behind cover, even if you can see part of them, is 100% RNG on if it will work or not.
Are you aware of infinite cleave Antax 5? Either way, when the servers are having a ‘good day’ (which is admittedly rarer and rarer) it is more than possibly to melee-clear a room, though it is of course more dangerous than taking them out from cover.
Yeah BB has uses, but it’s not very good. And like I said before, if you’re overwhelmed or about to be, jumping 45% in peril isn’t always optimal.
The point should be obvious. The talent tree is a mess. You can build for one type of staff (purge), though of course you’re not enhancing the staff, the talents just let you get some synergy and utility out of using one.
Want to use a different staff? Congratulations, you will perform exactly the same as an Ogryn using the same staff. Or a Zealot. Or a Veteran.
To say that three of them are viable is a bit of a push, too. Bringing a Voidstrike into damnation would be pretty questionable. I mean, it works, but oh boy do you lack damage.
I suppose the main thing though, is that Psyker feels like it requires sweaty try-harding constantly to be useful, and still not being as useful as other classes who can perform with a lot less effort. Now experiences may vary in premades that built around certain things that lean super heavily on one thing or another, and arguably if you’re happy to just CC, surge staff Psyker can be pretty easy (and also dull as hell). You’re not contributing nearly as much if you’re just CCing, though. (You as in general plural, not you specifically.)
I would rather have the throwing knives psyker had for a blitz action at one point. Going from that to brain burst is such a downgrade, there’s no gameplay arc involved with BB. Just waiting for bars to fill.
Average slow runs clock at around 35 mins. Sometimes in groups of 4 randoms with very low synergy but good enough skill to wade through it can reach the 40 min mark
Which vs shooters you should be doing regardless of your setup unless you want to be a hindrance to your team. Glad we agreed that peril and by consequence quelling isn’t an issue in this important and commonplace phase.
And high peril is a problem why? a second important special showed up? press F BB it. Don’t have F? Melee with your Quell on Weak Spot Hit sword for 1 swing, block push once then BB it. Yeah you ll probably take a hit or 2 if you are mega swarmed but what’s more important at that moment?
Why do you think peril is any different to some class with a ranged weapon not managing their reloads well? What do you think a Sharpshooter would do if a trapper was sighted and his secondary was not reloaded? or if he just emptied his clip on the first special in the example?
What’s the difference?
Not my experience. If there is even a sliver of the enemy showing BB will latch on. If not then noone with direct fire weapons can harm him anyway. Some railings which shouldn’t completely block "vision"do but that also is the same for guns.
Infact i often use BB as “vision” since i don’t even need to know a target is there for it to pick it up.
Is it possible? Yes. Is it safe or easy compared to the alternative? hell no. In Damnation a single dreg or scab shooter can strip you of your entire toughness. You want to make things harder for you? be my guest if you enjoy it that way. I personally would like to complete the run rather than have to go in and pick up the zealot who kept on rushing rooms with shooters still lingering.
Ok again how is this any different from the other classes? Their talents aren’t all usefull or weapon enhancing. The zealot has a build that enhances or relies on crit weapons. The ogryn has no weapon enhancing builds tbh the whole tree is too generic. The Veteran is the only one with 3 distinct that make stuff like single fire lassguns - autoguns shine or bolter - plasma gun shine or braced autogun / recon lasgun shine. Again that’s not because those builds buff the weapons directly rather than they make playing them more effective.
It’s not any different for the psyker. The only real complaint you can make is that there is no feat or build that directly enhances staff damage output or staff CC ability. Is it needed or not? That’s a different debate; i would not immediately say yes though.
Voidstrike like the Purgatus is primarily a horde clearer with the advantage of being able to do it at range. A Voidstrike with Peril reduction on weak spot kill basically is a non stop firing machine if anyone is building peril using that thing he needs to improve his aiming. It also has very good stagger on high / full charge but is single target and has to be aimed. Purgatus stagger with left click doesnt need much aim. You lack CC with Void not damage.
Is it a high ceiling class skill wise? Yes you can definately say that. But to say that other classes can outperfom it with little effort is simply erroneous.
Zealot is a better melee-er but your flame is better than his and unless he is running an eviscerator he won’t have the one or two shot capability you have vs strong elites that the force sword can give you, nor will he get the knockback you can get from force sword unless he picks the appropriate weapon, and even then its not as fast as the force sword knockdown, both of which require sacrificing some other aspect.
Sharpshooter can be the ultimate shooter mob clearer in the game but requires recon - braced weapons which impact his long range capabilities vs specials.
Btw i forgot to mention if you are using Ascendant Blaze and 6 Warp Charges clearing a room full of regular shooters is as easy and fast as pressing F once. You get slower BBs overall but with the ability to immiadately discharge to kill all regular mobs in your line of sight. And you don’t need to run purgatus staff just because you use Ascendant Blaze you can go Surge for the CC and work with slightly slower BBs but with the “Erase all regular mobs” button.
And obviously anyone running Surge just spamming the staff without constantly switching between using BBs and the force sword for knockdowns or elite takedowns is not maximizing the characters potential.
I mean at the end of the day it just sounds like you don’t like the class. Doesn’t mean the class is bad. Just ain’t your thing. Which is perfectly fine.
I mean at the end of the day it just sounds like you really like the class. Doesn’t mean the class is good, it’s just your thing. Which is perfectly fine.
See how that works?
Well now you’re even contradicting yourself. It’s never an issue, but also it’s totally an issue. Railings aren’t the only things that will block a BB. Nevermind getting BB to target the correct target.
Serious whataboutism. The talent trees overall aren’t nearly deep enough or good enough for only giving us four careers. Pointing out weaknesses in other talent trees doesn’t negate the problems with Psyker talent tree. Also if you think a Zealot can only build for crit, you’re wrong. Whether not building for crit is a good idea though… depends on playstyle, I suppose.
Again you contradict yourself. Something being a horde clearer or single target CC (not single target damage) pretty much explicitly means it lacks serious damage output. Have you timed a full charge on Void that gives you 400 damage, and calculated DPS? Sure, against a horde (esp in a hallway) it’s good damage. Against anything else, though? Hah.
I’m arguing that it takes more effort on Psyker to perform close to other classes, and that a similar amount of effort on other classes (at least Zealot & Vet) will give better results.
We’re clearly not in agreement, and that’s fine. Psyker is clunky, and it’s a class that is an absolute nothingburger without the weapons. And the weapons aren’t unique. It’s not like Psykinetic is going to be the only Psyker in the game.
When you (and others) talk him up, you keep coming back to Force Sword push, Force Sword deflect, and what this or that staff can do. None of it has anything to do with Psyker - Psykinetic.
How am i contradicting myself. Targetting someone behind cover with the BB is easier and faster than ADSing with a weapon. Show me an example of a direct fire gun being able to shoot a target that cannot be targetted by BB from the same position and i 'll accept that i am wrong.
You are the one who said the Psyker has a poor talent tree. I merely pointed out that it’s on par with the rest of the classes more or less. If the ranged combat mechanics of the game are borked you ain’t gonna use it to complain about the Psyker now would you? why do it about the tree?
How does something that can erase 50+ mobs in a couple of seconds lack damage? You don’t fully charge unless you want the ranged knockback or close range knockback if you ain’t using a force sword. For single high hp target if you dont like spamming it just sword it down.
The difference is that compared to a Zealot who might very rarely (in a really good team, which doesnt have to be premade btw) have to switch to ranged or Veteran who might very rarely have to switch to melee the psyker has to seamlessly weave through all his available arsenal (melee - ranged - bb) to perform to his potential. Even though he won’t outperform, the specialist builds on the specific field, he is able to bring an overall more balanced package without having the constraint of getting tied up too much in one aspect. The pay off ? a higher skill ceiling.
What does that even mean? Don’t the weapons define the sharpshooter? What is a sharpshooter without a power sword? or a Lasgun? Are you implying that they can pick a build and any weapon will work with it? That’s just plain wrong.
I want to like psyker, its the first class I got to 30.
Psyker can handle a big melee threat if he is solo or in a small group, a charged force sword heavy attack to the head is one of the hardest hitting attacks in the game, but you will struggle to use this in a horde bc any hit interrupts your heavy and the charge does not last long enough to try again.
If psyker is focused on staves, then ALL of their ranged options should be staves.
I’m not asking for much, I think psyker talents should focus on 3 specific flavors.
-Talents that focus on empowering non-warp weapons to make those options meaningful.
-Talents that empower warp weapons.
-Talents that empower class abilities.
With focuses in these directions, players can use any melee and ranged weapon in their class.
Completely incorrect, I can carry my team through Damnation. Did so today. The saber is an extremely powerful defensive weapon, and the surge staff provides almost limitless CC as well as high damage against groups of ranged enemies.
You may not want to play this style; I don’t see anyone play the way I play. But I am nearly unkillable and can fight any enemy toe-to-toe, while providing extreme support for my team against all elites, even dogs and mutants.
Edit: I also don’t understand why people don’t think Psykers have the best, BY FAR, CC. I can keep elites dancing for hours if I wanted to. What’s better than infinite? The only things that comes close are either grenades or the 2-handed zealot maul.
You… you think a Vet can’t perform without the class specific weapons? Or a Zealot?
Uhh… I don’t even know what to say to that. It’s like we’re not even playing the same game.
The Psyker does have to work a lot harder, yeah. Not just switching between all his kit, but also managing peril, and the lowest HP+toughness combo in the game at the same time. The reward isn’t a higher skill ceiling. The reward is to work twice as hard just to attempt to be as good as other classes. You seem to imply Psyker has a higher skill ceiling than the other classes - meaning you can perform better than the other classes.
