Psyker needs upgrade / fix badly

[Kyanos]

*** Overview**

for intents and purposes psyker currently /only/ has two viable abilities at each tier (Combat, Blitz, Keystone). this is kind of a crappy position to be in. i love playing psyker, i love tinkering around with builds on it (specifically odd ones) but holy manjango is it limited beyond all scope right now, partly because of bad design and partly bad execution. this is not intended to insult, just observation.

design - Psyker is a mage unit. the thing that makes a mage a mage in video games is one of two things. either high levels of utility and flexibility in the use of their skills… or a wide variety of skills available. psyker has neither. the psyker has the same number of abilities as the other characters, but on every single tier (sans aura which is just… an aura) one of the abilities just flat sucks. the ability is just objectively worse than either of the other choices.

Execution is mostly the psyker has little to no synergy outside of Peril, which means that you are actively discouraged from using guns. this can be fine but does create issues with the concept of “creating a build” as it requires some coherency to function. you are taking disparate elements and trying to create a tool for a specific purpose (including being a jack of all trades) but if theres nothing to tie them together…

*** Analysis**

1. Scriers Gaze

scriers gaze is right now the hands down worst combat skill the psyker has. The fact its a steroid is fine in concept and general effect, but theres ‘details’ about the skill that make it literally trash.

first, its oriented towards being a gunner skill which isnt all that likely to play on a psyker seeing as it makes it effectively a bootleg as hell veteran that literally cannot compare. even ignore all the support perks that the psyker is missing (considering its built to run off peril in major ways)

before modifiers -

Scriers Gaze -
10% damage
20% critical
scales up to additional 30%

Executioners Stance -
25% ranged damage
25% weak spot damage
spread / recoil “greatly reduced”
all special units are highlighted for direct targeting (including through visibility reduction effects)

thats not counting upgrades, which for SG adds different buffs to the steroid to make it more rounded, and vet’s just increases the utility of the skill up to and including making it functionally infinite duration.

Scrier’s gaze is “bugged” with Warp Charges and virtually all other cooldown based abilities because it is a channeled ability so cooldowns arent registered at all until at least the first part of the ability (where peril is building) is finished. this generally means the two core abilities for CDR builds on psykers is completely useless with scier and in fact extending the duration of scrier at all results in an extended cooldown as well.

the two key nodes which relate to CDR are psykinetic’s aura (5% cooldown on elite or specialist kill) and the warp siphon keystone, both of which are going to apply the CDR during the phase of SG which doesnt /have/ cooldown and therefore it is completely nullified

2. Disrupt Destiny

disrupt destiny sucks on a bunch of different levels… i like the idea in general but theres three core problems with it.

DD only designates /one/ target at a time
DD only activates if /you/ kill the target

and a personal peeve of mine it activates on a target within 25m which means it can literally designate someone in the next room or something equally stupid if your not using a gun /with a scope/.

3. Brain Rupture

among the Blitz abilities, the worst hands down is Brain Rupture / Brain Burst

deals a high amount of damage (i believe ignoring armor) to a single target… after channeling for 2-3 seconds and building up 20-30% peril
its modifiers are… kinetic resonance makes it viable at all for 10 seconds after using an ability by reducing the cast time to 25% and cutting the cost in half. if paired with venting scream its semi viable with venting taking out a horde then using rupture to pick off specials… but that still sucks. and kinetic flayer is terrible. i use it all the time (because again im beating my head against a wall trying to make a viable melee psyker for high difficulties) but its unreliable as hell (10% chance to trigger on any hits) but can only trigger once every 15 seconds.

4. Telekine Dome

Minor commentary here, mostly in that the Dome being fixed position is terrible as this game is built largely on mobility. Theres a number of units that can and will force you to leave the dome; specifically Maulers, Ragers, Crushers, Bursters, Arsonists… and the bosses. thats just what i can remember offhand. your only real ability to survive in this game is to avoid damage not just tank it. Even an ogryn with a riot shield has times (far fewer) where they absolutely have to move.

5. Purloin Providence (Disrupt Destiny)
   This ones a little weird as its a modifier for DD and DD has its own issues. basically DD is inconsistent as hell in terms of being able to use it, and adding more instability makes it even more frustrating of an ability. I’m not putting this one in suggestions only because if the baseline instability of DD is addressed in some way the problem is fixed, but otherwise the percent chance to trigger quell needs to go away. Make it guaranteed to quell instead.

*** Suggestions**

ignoring the synergy issue which i have no clue how to fix… Noting that the suggestions are not meant to all be done, its various spitballed ideas that address either aspects or the entirety of the issue(s) i see with the node

• Brain Rupture
  outside of a rework or replacement… the only thing i can think to make it viable at all is to reduce the cast time to like a second or so. basically the same amount of time it requires for an Assail snipe shot.

1. Kinetic Resonance

this would need to be looked at in that change, but im not sure it would actually need to be touched as I could see utility in gatling Ruptures.

2. Kinetic Flayer

I can think of two modifications for the ability that are independent of the Rupture alteration…
the first possible alteration is to just remove the cooldown and shift the percent chance to trigger to crits. meaning if you crit something the brain pop will go off period end of story.
the alternative route is to tie it to warp damage and remove the percent chance to trigger. meaning if i hit something with any warp damage it /will/ trigger rupture. keep the 15 second cooldown but in return apply half (or full) Peril cost to the usage.

• Disrupt Destiny

1. Allow DD to designate multiple units in range. just reduce the odds of designating units to compensate such that only a handful of units are marked at any one time, scattered across the entire group
2. Give the DD bonuses to the psyker even if an ally kills the DD target.
3. Allow the players to reduce the range of DD such that the targets marked are within a reasonable distance of the target (say maximum Purgatus range)
4. Increase the movement speed bonus to the full duration of DD

• Scriers Gaze

1. Remove the “channeling” aspect of SG. This will allow CDR to work on it as is.
2. Set the cooldown as a stored variable in the channel and apply all CDR to it so that the actual time is reduced. just make sure to put a safeguard in the transfer so that it cant set the cooldown to -50 seconds or something equally stupid.

• Telekine Dome

1. Tie the dome to the player at reduced size and/or duration.

• True Aim

1. Change the guaranteed critical to any attack, not just ranged.

thats all i’ve seen so far in my tinkering.

thanks for the time and hopefully this helps.

[Dumlefudge]

@Kyanos

and kinetic flayer is terrible. i use it all the time (because again im beating my head against a wall trying to make a viable melee psyker for high difficulties) but its unreliable as hell (10% chance to trigger on any hits) but can only trigger once every 15 seconds.

I feel like removing non-elite/specialists enemies are eligible targets for Kinetic Flayer is the biggest QOL boost they could give it. Poxwalkers burning to death don’t need to receive the proc

@Kyanos

Minor commentary here, mostly in that the Dome being fixed position is terrible as this game is built largely on mobility. Theres a number of units that can and will force you to leave the dome

The dome is already really strong IMO. Making it mobile at a reduced range would be a significant downgrade - the effect of reducing the size is obvious, but making it mobile makes it very unpredictable for supporting your team.

[Mayson]

Now I didn’t read every single point, but on the premise alone I have to disagree.
Psyker is right now one of the strongest classes, both when it comes utility / team support AND damage.

While I like some of your suggestions, I cannot in good conscience upvote a thread that comes in with the premise of the Psyker needing an upgrade. To me that sounds like words coming from someone who doesn’t utilize them well enough yet.

What I will give you is that post-rework, Soulblaze is in a weird spot again where a full Soul Blaze build lacks reliability.
Full agreement on Disrupt Destiny, too. That ability is poorly thought out.

The Telekine Dome on the other hand is single-handedly one of the strongest team abilites you can bring at the moment.
Full protection from ALL projectiles and a lot of passive toughness regen. It shines in almost every situation, whether you go on the offense, hold a position or clutch it out desperately.

[Kyanos]

going to make this a generic reply to address telekine dome since both of you brought it up.

Telekine dome - i didnt say its weak, i said the fixed position element is bad design for this style of game. the biggest defense against literally everything is /moving/. the only two classes that have the choice to just tank hits and not move to any degree are Ogryn with riot shield (especially if they lock down) and psyker with the talent that blocks damage with Peril before stamina. literally everything else has to move constantly, and both of the two mentioned will be forced to move if certain enemies show up… or they just die. that list “happens” to be half of the specialists in the game and all of the bosses. the shield in general is a very powerful ability but when specialists show up me and my team (randoms to be fair) are regularly forced out of the dome because we have to move or just die in it. i didnt suggest reducing the range or duration of the dome because i want either one reduced, but as a potential balance against it becoming mobile and tied to the psyker directly /if/ fatshark considers that to be too strong of an upgrade

the emphasis of the title isnt on the fact psyker is weak, its that my suggestions /would/ result in a buff to psyker, albeit only in an odd build. hence upgrade / fix. those arent two separate options, its the same result from both, just an honest appraisal of what i’m seeing.

to reiterate. “in general” the psyker is extremely powerful. in very specific places there are very very stark flaws to the design and execution that render /specific/ kinds of builds untenable. the psyker as a mage has less flexibility than any other class in the game as the only functional elements of its kit revolve around its abilities… of which the only one that can be modified in any fundamental way IS the telekine shield. and the fact that only two of the options of each set are useable, one is just outright and objectively /bad/. thats something that is not true for literally any other class, and shouldn’t be true for the psyker… and if it is fixed that /will/ upgrade it because it will give psykers more viable builds so it can be used in different circumstances.

[Skaleek]

I see what you’re getting at but gun psyker is quite good if you leverage the crit with kinetic flayer. I know you said in the OP you thinks scriers gaze is the worst ability they get. Debatable, imo. The movespeed, the crit, the damage. It’s insane for both guns and melee. Disrupt destiny is also very good If you can manipulate the spawn to give yourself quick stacks. I would tend to agree that this is a flaw in its design, or really, a flaw in its targetting. I can’t disagree with the points about the anti-synergy, you’re right it sucks. Warp charges should totally interact with Scriers.

The only real problem this build has is packs of heavy armor (and even then you can brute force with a rending melee, or a crit gun will get you through it).

Psykers issue post patch 13, for me, is that it lacks get out of jail stuff with the exception of venting shriek. Psykers can’t really afford to make mistakes (I think this is sort of echo’ing your sentiment when you said lack of versatility, that’s for you to judge). That and bio lightning is garbage imo. Just like old surge staff. CC’ing something for a second just means the enemies start piling up. Besides, if you really want to CC, use the trauma staff, you get the added bonus of actually killing something.

One huge change i would like is the removal of forcing the expenditure of warp charges to use your blitz.

Gun psyker, Column V, not my best run, but good enough to illustrate feasibility maybe? I basically fulfilled the anti ranged elite role that a veteran normally would:

[Kyanos]

gun psyker is the way SG is built to be used, the issue otherwise being that it doesnt have much of any support for it - most of the nodes (minor stat nodes or actual effect nodes) are built around specifically Perils and Warp Damage… neither of which is guns. there is a /little/ support for guns however, but /none/ for melee. the closest you get is the two additional nodes on SG that give +20% durability and +20% movement speed.

but to be precise i already posted up a prior article talking about the melee build etc, but this one was originally intended to point out the flaws to SG, and got expanded to talk about the flaws in design and execution of the psyker overall. this article isnt about a particular build, its the lack of versatility to most any build, partly because of the extreme focus on Warp Damage and Peril. in fact, the only way to recover toughness outside of those two things is a crit build.

as to specifically the feasibility of a gun build on psyker since you brought it up

the only point i made is the psyker is a poor choice to doing the gun build because veteran is just straight better at it, in all the same ways the psyker would be. hell, i would think any of the other classes would be objectively better at doing it because they all get actual support for it. even the zealot. and since this keeps being misunderstood - thats not saying gun builds are weak or more specifically non-viable, thats saying its the most inefficient choice possible.

i did a comparison between Executioner and Scrier but i’ll summarize here-
Scrier has slightly more damage but is far less reliable.
Executioner has nearly as much damage, its always up when you need it (because you can easily extend the duration past the cooldown with any level of competence with it), and most importantly it /highlights/ all the special units so you can see exactly where they are and what they are doing no matter any modifier or LOS.

but on that score i will reiterate that im trying (and failing) to get a viable melee build on psyker so its not like im overly concerned with efficiency; just noting what specifically i see.

thus far for reference im running two melee builds, one centered on the Telekine Shield and one on Scriers Gaze. with the flaws to each being as stated - you get pushed out of TK really really easy (which is mitigated /if/ you have high enough CDR to constantly drop them), and SG… would be a decent ability in melee if a couple of flaws were fixed because as it is while i can use it the build works… but i cant use it for /at least/ half the time because of design issues.

(edit 3) oh and one last point as i forgot to address it.

SG is the worst ability they get. that is /not/ debatable.

Venting Shriek deals damage in a large area, gets rid of 50% peril (which is what their entire kit is structured around), and most importantly CC’s every enemy in the blast except bosses. oh and it can be used as an override for the Perils explosion animation.
Telekine Shield blocks ranged damage and either stuns melee’s coming after you, or you drop an arena to fight in.
SG increases your high offensive ability by scaling peril to literally suicidal levels if you use /anything/ that builds peril. but at its most optimal you cannot use it half of the game and will likely use it far less than that.

VS and TKS are both reliably available when needed and are just as powerful as SG in concept… but from a practical angle are more powerful because they simply can /do/ more than SG can. thats not a debatable thing, SG is just flat worse than the other two which is why you almost never see anyone use the skill (coming from someone who is insisting on using the skill.)

[MarxistDictator]

Gun psyker can’t control shooters, and even in cherry picked footage I see those issues arise of the gaze not providing anything useful but a ‘kill harder’ button when the team is already doing well. Its just a weak all around build and the ult should probably have some in built protections to suppression effect if its supposed to be juicing gun play…

[Skaleek]

How is executioners stance different than a kill harder button? Thats exactly what scriers gaze is. Kill harder, faster. Thats the whole point of it. I can totally control shooters on my gun psyker. The movespeed lets me ignore trash hitting me from behind as I tunnel vision shooters down.

[Skaleek]

I still disagree, sorry. Venting shriek is a great override for peril explosion, absolutely. But scriers is alot like the veteran ranged tree. It’s a selfish ability that will put your damage in both melee and ranged over the top allowing you to mass clear packs of shooters, ragers, maulers, even crushers and bulwarks.

As for supporting nodes for gunplay:

All of these can be used to great effect with a gun, so I’m not sure how you’re saying theres no gun support nodes. The versatility i gain from being a gun psyker is that I can kill ANYTHING quickly. Kinetic flayer is an MVP when dealing with tough targets.

If you’re talking about more utility for the gun psyker, sign me up. If you’re talking about buffing the gun psyker, that path will lead to the eventual nerf of gun psyker, they are already very strong, in my opinion.

I play psyker a lot, I have a ton of builds, and scriers gaze is the only time where my melee feels like i can compete with a zealot or a melee spec’d vet.

[Kyanos]

i said and i quote theres no /melee/ nodes. did say theres /some/ ranged support. also said most is either Perils or Warp based.

and of your list, i’ll include general support like warp rider

Kinetic flayer requires you to get rupture which is the /worst/ ability possible on that tier so you are functionally burning two points for a really shitty ability (10% chance on 15s cooldown is ass)

Psykinetic’s Aura isnt range support by any stretch of the imagination especially as it /does not work/ with SG. because SG doesnt go on cooldown for ages and therefore any kills gotten while SG is up do not trigger PKA.

Anticipation - not range support
Empathic Evasion - not range support. its anti-range. not the same thing

you are conflating “supporting nodes for gunplay” which means offensive AND defensive for what i said which is ranged support. as in nodes that /support the ability to inflict damage at range/.

and so i will say again - there are some nodes that give ranged support, there are basically none for melee and what few offensive nodes there are in general are either in support of /warp damage/ (like perilous combustion because soulblaze is warp damage) or are tied to Peril (like Warp Rider)

and i will also restate that i am not talking about any particular build for the psyker. if you want me to be precise about my experiences i will refer to MELEE psyker as i have repeatedly stated i am building. i dont frankly know or care about the gun psyker and only mentioned it in passing as a note that scriers gaze was obviously built for use with guns. thats it, full stop.

i dont want the psyker buffed. i want the issues with the skill tree fixed and i want it to be a more flexible character. thats it. the suggestions i had come out as buffs however which is why im honest in the title and mention it needs an “Upgrade / Fix” because fixing it will upgrade it. similar to a car with a busted wheel getting the wheel fixed makes it an objectively better car.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

Kinetic flayer requires you to get rupture which is the /worst/ ability possible on that tier so you are functionally burning two points for a really shitty ability (10% chance on 15s cooldown is ass)

Rupture is the worst ability. Hoo boy. You and I have some fundamental disagreements here. Biolightning is the worst ability, bar none, in my opinion. I wont touch it, I tried it a bunch, it’s AWFUL. CC is pointless in a horde game where enemies keep coming at you. Killing your enemies is the best CC. Rupture is not the worst node pick, you’re straight up wrong here. Meaningful CC comes from the trauma, it saves your team from taking a pack of mauler or crusher overheads and still kills them in the process.

I think that we want the same thing, in the end, but from where I’m standing, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. Or i should say, your perception of reality is vastly different from my own.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

Anticipation - not range support
Empathic Evasion - not range support. its anti-range. not the same thing

It is a defensive ability which enables you to keep firing, or swinging your melee. It results in more uptime on your gun, and your melee, because you dont have to hide from the gunner lines firing at you when you are immune to ranged fire. Therefore, it supports your gunplay, or melee play.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

and so i will say again - there are some nodes that give ranged support, there are basically none for melee and what few offensive nodes there are in general are either in support of /warp damage/ (like perilous combustion because soulblaze is warp damage) or are tied to Peril (like Warp Rider)

You’re right that we dont get any melee attack speed or melee damage nodes directly. I wouldnt mind a few of those sprinkled in our tree. Scriers does help fill this in, though.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

Psykinetic’s Aura isnt range support by any stretch of the imagination especially as it /does not work/ with SG. because SG doesnt go on cooldown for ages and therefore any kills gotten while SG is up do not trigger PKA.

Works when scriers is on its 30s cooldown, You can cherry pick so can I.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

i will refer to MELEE psyker as i have repeatedly stated i am building. i dont frankly know or care about the gun psyker and only mentioned it in passing as a note that scriers gaze was obviously built for use with guns. thats it, full stop.

Full stop, your best bet to be a competent melee psyker is the scriers gaze build, unless you want to be defensive support with telekine. The movespeed, the crit, the damage, it all plays into buffing your melee. With an illisi, slaughterer 4 and uncanny 4 and scriers, everything melts. Doesnt matter what im hitting.

[Kyanos]

no offense its not debatable.

single target ability that costs perils like hell and requires a long ass charge up to trigger in exchange for what on most any target is extreme overkill versus an ability that stops an entire section of the map stone cold while dealing rather crappy damage to them and allowing your team to mow them down.

shock isnt meant to be a personal ability, its meant to be a supporting ability for your team. its useable /in that context/. rupture is not usable in any context because assail does the exact same thing way better. only benefit rupture has is kinetic flayer. i use it for the same reason. still crap compared to assail or shock.

[Skaleek]

It’s like im telling you there’s a melee spec and then you tell me the nodes are bad and you wont do it, but i can literally take those nodes and perform incredibly well as a melee psyker, so I dont know what to tell you other then stop using lightning, start using flayer and scriers, and be the melee psyker. You don’t get to take support abilities and be a bulldozer.

With slaughterer 4 pumping power into the illisi, you can use your push to fling hordes away from you and make room to move around. The cleave damage output is insane. It’s not that different from something like blazing piety with a heavy sword or an eviscerator, but you get ups and downs between cd of scriers.

I don’t know what difficulty you are playing at but I can count on one hand the time’s ive seen biolightning in Auric Maelstrom because it just doesnt get the job done.

@Kyanos

rupture is not usable in any context because assail does the exact same thing way better.

You assail a crusher and I’ll rupture him and lets see who comes out on top. I’ll give you a 5 second headstart even. What even is this? Have you played psyker? Do you use assail to take out bosses too?

Brain burst saves my ass against snipers, bulwarks, and other annoying problems (Did i mention brainburst is one of our best options for boss dps?). You’re out to lunch if you think brain burst is bad.

[Kyanos]

you are making assumptions and its making you sound stupid.

i did not say what build i used beyond that i have two, and one is built for SG and one built for TKS. oh and also mentioning a second ago that i use rupture for kinetic flayer.

said what im going to say theres no point to adding to it because frankly im just pointing out the same things over and over because my original statements were missed and what you are unaware of is being guessed at badly.

my analysis is what it is, feel free to refute the specific points if you have something to add but thus far not really the case.

[Skaleek]

@Kyanos

you are making assumptions and its making you sound stupid.

No what sounds stupid is you presenting your opinions as facts. Ie “brain rupture is the worst node because i say so”. If you’re going in with biolightning expecting to be good at melee, lol, thats like telling the vet to go all left side and complaining they have no melee viable spec because you are unwilling to take nodes that make you better at melee. Like… Ok.

[Kyanos]

not because i said so. i detailed exactly why my opinion is what it is. twice. at least. i also did not list my build, and you keep assuming i use shock. i dont. never have. i just know how it works. hence “assumptions are making you sound stupid”

hence, with you making assumptions its a waste of time and thread to continue refuting points i didnt make and addressing abstractions that are largely irrelevant to the analysis i actually made. might as well have fun chilling with friends and continuing to try and make the stuff work properly with the tools i currently have.

have a good one