Making Havoc modifiers more interesting

So this season of Havoc has had modifiers that are controversial, to say the least. At the very start of things, it’s clear that Blue Stimm is way overtuned. that % DR and hitmass needs to be lessened or have it decay over time, otherwise it just makes for very degenerate situations with zero counterplay.

Outside of numbers balance though, one issue I see is that while the concepts are good, they don’t take the concept far enough? Modifiers should by design add new wrinkles and novel situations to each of our Havoc games. While the maps and missions we play are mostly the same, modifiers should be acting as variables that change up and bounce off each other each match, keeping things fresh and challenging. Still, as part of that design process, FS seems to be wary of adding effects outside of just making things harder/stronger, even when it would make narrative sense.

I’ll give two examples. Contaminated Stimms is a cool modifier (with the exception of blue ofc), but it also feels like much has been left on the table. The modifier is the culmination of a story arc, it has multiple effects that can change the gameplay situation in a moment, and definitely makes things harder.

As part of that first point though, we know that there’s no way these things are safe to use. As such, why not have a chance for something negative to happen to the enemies when they use it? As a basic idea:

  • Add a variable on Stimm usage where 20% of the time, the enemy also suffers from a negative side effect
  • The side effects would be scaled in likelihood against the severity of the effects:
  • 45%: A small DoT (could be bleed or the soon to be introduced toxin)
  • 25%: Stuns the enemy for a few seconds
  • 15%: The enemy is suppressed indefinitely and just runs away
  • 10%: Causes the enemy to aggro to other enemies
  • 5%: Just straight up kills them

I’m sure there’s a bunch of other potential side effects you could think of, but immediately you can imagine all the fun heads-up situations and goofy interactions that could take place, which again, to me is what modifiers are really about?

Next is The Encroaching Garden (purple heal buff). It’s great to see some direct influence from the Grandfather and this is a modifier one that if not dealt with, can completely lead to a loss. So far so good. But, we know that while Nurgle’s embrace leads to longevity, it doesn’t come without costs. As enemies get healed continuously, what if they had scaling set of debuffs that built up over time? The weight of all the extra tissue could manifest in extra appendages or masses slowing the enemy down, or the poxes and bacteria buildup lead to brittleness or extra vulnerability to various kinds of attacks… Once again, the modifier is still very dangerous, but you could play around it in fun and interesting ways. I’m sure there’s other debuffs that could fit better, I just went for slowing as a first option since it’s a hallmark of Nurgle units in the tabletop to be hard to kill but very slow as well.

TO FATSHARK’S CREDIT, they have implemented what I’m talking about at least in part with a few of their existing modifiers. Rotten Armor does already decrease movement speed in exchange for extra tankiness, although it currently doesn’t work well with existing modifiers and design since armor waves are way too prevalent. I think I would expect the Rotten Armor to also to hurt non-Rotten Armor units around them? Of course the toxic gas eventually buffing groaners should still be present. All this to say, there’s options for where they could go.

Likewise, Cranial Corruption does some of what I mentioned regarding the Encroaching Garden: enemies are visually and mechanically changed so that you can fight them differently (helmetless carapace enemies, etc), and you can use the explosion from attacking their head to hurt and stagger enemies too. Still, I feel like this is just a basic level of interaction and they could take things further.

At the end of the day, I play Havoc 40s because I want hard, exciting, and unique gameplay experiences. As part of that last point, modifiers should really look at adding more neutral/positive unique effects that will precipitate more interesting interaction between variables which in turn will keep the game fresh and novel. I think most people would tell you this season’s Havoc modifiers combine together in really negative and uninteresting ways (purple buff, blue stimms, rotten armor clumps, etc etc), so a way to combat that is open up the possibility space a little more. This balance of positive/negative/neutral modifiers can be found in many other games, especially roguelikes, where part of the longevity really comes from creating unique situations on each playthrough.

I recognize some of what I suggested above would require extra modeling, texturing, animation, etc etc, but I do think it would be well worth it to invest the time. Thank you, FS!

1 Like

Havoc mods should change the way the team plays, like how Rituals forces a team to move, and not another iteration of DR+anti-stagger+hit mass increase like many of the mods have been.

2 Likes

Just let us pick mutators so I never have to play this garbage again

2 Likes

If only they weren’t bugged beyond belief and if only the game didn’t sometimes spawn multiple rituals in the same area along with bosses, but when they don’t do any of that they are not the worst I guess

Can we NOT encourage Fatshark to turn Havoc into a game mode which requires a manual longer than Microsoft Flight Simulator?! It’s enough I need a colour chart to play the f…game as it is!

JFC :joy:

not sure where you’re getting requiring a manual, let alone anything like microsoft flight sim?

the idea is just for FS to make sure to add neutral or positive (detrimental to enemies) effects to modifiers so that they don’t just all end up being combining together into 1000% DR and other horrible ways. modifiers should make the game more fun and interesting, not limit how you need to play to an incredibly small number of viable builds.

I get that Havoc isn’t for everyone and I support them creating alternate different new difficulties, but many of us like Havoc and want it to still be hard/harder but interesting at the same time.

This has been Havoc since inception and they’ve doubled, tripled down on it. I think there are people who actually enjoy the meta stuff and keep playing it for that, and Fatshark is making these changes for them.

I think we must accept that Havoc isn’t made for us and ask for alternatives to it instead of changing it. More fun, more harder maelstrom modifiers to make Auric Maelstrom fresh. Or maybe a new type of maelstrom with more wacky modifiers.

Hmm, I don’t think we are alike. I like Havoc and have enjoyed it, with caveats, since it was added. Again, the assertion is that I want the game to be harder, but harder in interesting ways. These two things aren’t at odds. I don’t play meta builds and clear H40s just fine. The hard content is what I’m looking for. There are still so many ways they can develop the mode besides just swapping modifiers.

Same for me, other than on the recent modifiers

This is more or less my point. I also want them to, but Fatshark doesn’t seem to want to. They seem to want Havoc to be a benchmark of sorts, not an actual interesting thing. The modifiers they add boil down to “you have to optimize your builds damage 40% more to keep doing acceptable damage”

And as I said, they’ve gone into this direction for 2-3 seperate havoc reiterations. They want it this way

So I think for me, even despite times where the game has gotten degenerate because of modifiers combining together poorly, even this season there’s nothing else like like H40s in terms of the height of interesting and consequential gameplay. I like a lot of the direction they’re going in for Havoc, it’s just about making the parts that don’t mesh, better.

I don’t disagree but that speaks more about the lack of alternatives than havoc actually having any good design in it at all. Auric Maelstrom is game journalist difficulty at this point

Don’t be ridiculous. It’s far from gaming journalist difficulty. Actually create a new character and see how people play even in malice.

It was a hyperbole for fun. I don’t actually mean that game journalists play on there, but it is way too easy for any experienced player.

Rewrite the title as “Make Havoc Modifiers Great Again”.

nah, that MAGA stuff is cringe and fascist

This topic was automatically closed 14 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.