Keep Havoc Toxic

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
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You can absolutely learn to just dodge overheads and crusher attacks well and deal with them that way. If we’re talking safety, knife, DS, power sword and combat axe are extremely safe, the first 3 being either high mobility and/or capable of killing them very quickly, the combat axe being able to stun them competently. I used to do CIVI melee only maelstroms with a combat axe. It works good.

No offense but you can get full crusher overhead immunity every 2 seconds on havoc on vet, along with all other forms of damage. it doesn’t mean much. The common Havoc meta setups absolutely just let you circumvent all these game mechanics, moreso pre-new-havoc.

I’m not insinuating anything about you specifically btw, I’m just saying if soemone uses a combat axe, knife, DS, power sword, tac axe, shovel or chainaxe and can’t deal with crushers on aurics, the problem is solely that he doesn’t seem to be good at melee mechanics. If that applies to you, think about the way you approach the game. Shout spam to circumvent all mechanics is one reason some people can get true survivor without being able to fight two crushers at ocne without being overheaded. That’s the reason it’s called a crutch.

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Dunno, you sound pretty condescending here.

You can absolutely learn to just dodge overheads and crusher attacks well and deal with them that way.

I know how to dodge oneshots… Come on. I wouldn’t be playing at Havoc 40 and winning a decent amount of games, if I didn’t know how to dodge, would I?

My argument: “Exe Stance Vet is not that good or safe in melee”.
Your argument: “Just learn to dodge those oneshots man”.

VOC doesn’t have 100% uptime, and enemies can easily oneshot you even through it. You can instantly die in Havoc, because enemies deal a % of corruption damage with every attack.

I’ve seen it many times in Havoc, it just happens to people sometimes, no matter how good they are.

it doesn’t mean much.

Havoc 40 has much higher enemy density and more intense enemy setups than even auric maelstorms on average. VOC or not, I think completing a run with less 100 damage is pretty impressive, considering in Havoc it’s almost enevitable that you’ll get hit at least a few times.

What makes it even more ridiculous is that people earlier in the thread got upset when I called out mistakes made by content creator who went down multiple times in the mission, while running the same VOC, on top of playing in premade of high end players with thousands of hours…

If that applies to you, think about the way you approach the game

In auric games I play almost all builds and weapons, Exe Stance included. And even in Havoc I’ve tried different builds. Vet is not the class I go for a fulfilling melee experience.

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Depends on how meta your teams setup is man. With a chorus, bubble, psykinetics aura, shouts, you can absolutely win H40 without dodging. Especially old H40 as I said.

That is literally how you deal with crusher overheads. At this point I’m just confused. You at the same time claim you can dodge them no problem, but in the next breath you say dodging the overheads is not a reasonable strategy for dealing with them.

How can I not be condescending towards you if you don’t even know how gold toughness works while defending it? Isn’t this inherently a very good example of how having H40 and true survivor doesn’t mean much, if you’re an example of one who doesn’t even know what gold toughness does? Like I’m just gonna say it, you can see how this screams “I got carried by shout” yeah?

PS: I never said vet is the greatest melee class, total strawman constructed by you. I said you can use a melee weapon that destroys crushers to cover up the autoguns weakness, so it’s not a weak weapon just because of that. Having to use a melee weapon situationally does not mean you have to be playing the class focused on meleeing. And for the fifth time: You can use kraks if you really hate meleeing. It’s fine. It works really well on aurics. Brautos and Infantry autos dont need buffs.

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With a chorus, bubble, psykinetics aura, shouts, you can absolutely win H40 without dodging.

Certainly a very realistic claim to base your argument upon.

Even content creators fail running meta loadouts.

Especially old H40 as I said.

Why does old Havoc matter, again? The screenshot is recent. I’ve got my True Survivor originally back in december, when the mode just released.

How can I not be condescending towards you if you don’t even know how gold toughness works while defending it? Isn’t this inherently a very good example of how having H40 and true survivor doesn’t mean much, if you’re an example of one who doesn’t even know what gold toughness does? Like I’m just gonna say it, you can see how this screams “I got carried by shout” yeah?

Multiple pox bursters, several Ragers attacking at once, ground fire, gunners/reapers depleting even your gold toughness in seconds in Havoc, Twins melee attacks and gas grenades, mutant running you into Crusher overhead? I mean, golden toughness is not invincibility.

At this point you’re just grasping for every possibility to look down on me.

Good thing that you never got carried, and earned everything by your skill alone. /s

I never said vet is the greatest melee class, total strawman constructed by you

I didn’t say it was your words. I simply said my opinion on how Vet plays in melee, especially in Exe Stance, which you made into me “hating melee”.

I tried to be respectful when answering your posts, looks like engaging with you is a fruitless endeavor.

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85

We have indeed arrived

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86

i strongly believe that situations where enemies are completely unable to fight back should not exist. creating scenarios where even bosses can’t do anything due to the excessive staggering from VoC or the spam Chorus just makes the game boring. the same can be said for Smite as well. i can understand large enemies staggering from an Ogryn’s charge, that makes sense. but I don’t understand why VoC causes all enemies to fall over

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don’t mess with the guard, that’s why

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About as fruitless as getting you to admit autoguns aren’t “weak” on aurics. You can make the argument they suck on havoc but they’re extremely potent weapons on aurics. It’s crazy that you’d hinge your reason for autoguns being bad on auric crushers not being easily killable with them, and that crushers aren’t easily dealt with via e.g. a power sword and/or kraks, and it calls into question how you play the game.

You can’t be at the same time making your argument that you’re too bad to kill crushers on aurics with a power sword, but then also say I’m talking down to you and you don’t like it. You talked yourself down. Even if it’s not about you, anyone who fails to kill crushers with a powersword on aurics has a skill issue, true survivor or not. I never made this personal, you did; you’re the one who brought credentials into it like they legitimize the opinion that a power sword doesn’t deal with crushers well.

For what it’s worth, I doubt that you actually are so bad that you can’t dispatch a gaggle of crushers in aurics with a power sword. I’m just engaging with the premise you gave me, which was that you are too bad to do that. I do think you’re lacking melee combat knowledge given your insistence that autoguns are underpowered because they can’t kill crushers, and I do think that to simultaneously hold this opinion and to be clearing h40 on vet you must be relying on crutches and lacking basics. Not sure what you want me to say. I’m just keeping it real with you

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Autoguns are one of the numerous examples why NOTHING can be balanced around Havoc.
And if you want to keep auric difficult, weapons and talents should be balanced around regular damnation.
Havoc will always be something with a restrictive gameplay and few metas that you should take. Anyways, so many weapons cannot be used in havoc, that you cannot balance them around this difficulty level. And all weapons are inefficient about ammo use, cannot be balanced with Havoc in mind. Especially, Brauto, IAG, autopistol.

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90

the very creation of Havoc under the current balance was a mistake to begin with.
first, a large-scale balance adjustment of classes and weapons should be carried out based on Damnation or Auric.
only after that should Havoc be adjusted (nerfed).
if the game is balanced around Havoc, the current Auric will undoubtedly end up below Malice in difficulty, and players with even a moderate level of skill will find it too easy and never want to play Auric again.

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91

My issue with this design is also that Havoc is clearly designed to be a gamemode for groups now. It’s a nightmare to play with randoms for various reasons, some revolving around deranks and the resulting behavior, some revolving around the modifiers. The end result is that the gamemode isn’t really enjoyable with randoms anymore. Old H40 was puggable, people could just crutch on gold toughness if they wanted to be useful. It wasn’t THAT hard as a gamemode so you could play it with randoms to some degree of success. Not anymore outside of getting REAL lucky with randoms. That’s fine though, I don’t mind that in particular, it just means I won’t be playing it a lot anymore, it doesn’t suit my playstyle (I like to just pug when my friends arent around). It has a small map pool anyway. I acknowledge that the players who like to group up with 3 great players probably love this, that’s just not how I play the game tho.

The problem that results from this though is that I now have no alternatives that are challenging and fun to play with randoms. Auric maelstroms + histg at this point with the ogryn buffs are solo carryable consistently, without sweating. I think there are enough people like me who are bored of damnation + don’t like Havoc dynamics that they should address all the power creep or add a new difficulty with touched up enemy stats to fix it.

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92

absolutely. i love challenging games, but having to use the party finder every time to look for or gather teammates is a hassle, and depending on the time of day, I sometimes can’t even find anyone to play with. so i end up playing Auric instead. but, with the current balance, if there’s a Chorus Zealot, VoC, or Smyker in the game, it becomes unfun, so i leave immediately. then i choose another map and check the skills of the members who join, and only play if they meet my criteria. but most of the time, it’s just meta builds, so i can’t find a party that fits my conditions, and I end up not even being able to play Auric. It’s incredibly frustrating.

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93

WTF are you talking about. I never said Power Sword is bad at killing Crushers. Show me where I said it, quote it. I simply forgot to mention the weapon, but then corrected myself:

Of course, there is DS and knife, I mostly use the second.

Yes, I said DS, knife and Power Sword (which I forgot about for some reason) at the main anti carapace weapons, but everything other than them is middling territory at best on Vet.

The argument was that other melee weapons aside from top picks do not obliterate Crushers, what’s incorrect about it?

It’s crazy that you’d hinge your reason for autoguns being bad on auric crushers not being easily killable with them

Ah yes, present my argument, completely ignoring all other things I’ve said about autoguns accuracy, their bad long range capabilities, it’s time to kill most other targets even Maniacs, and them being ammo-hungry.

I guess if you disagree with all those points and just erase them from the argument you can just boil down all my posts to “can’t kill Crushers”. Sure.

I’m just keeping it real with you

Nah, you’re just being an elitist ass. Like many people here, you seem to think you’re the only person who knows how to play the game.

We’re discussing stuff politely, but then you start grasping at every possibility to call me bad, while I’m just making an argument on why I don’t like autoguns.

Why do I never see you Exe Stance autogun gods in aurics who kill everything so easily when I play other classes? I think I know why. You live in your make believe land where stacking 5 stacks of uncanny instantly makes the weapon a game changer, when it still takes almost a whole clip to kill a single Crusher.

If weapon is not weak, because you can clear aurics with it, I don’t know what to tell you.

Yes, it absolutely can. Not sure if it’s enough reason to adore them so much, scared to admit they are kinda weak. In reality autoguns were only ever good against shooters and specials, even during their prime.

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You can not like autoguns, but if you call them bad you are bad. They’re good and destroy aurics. Some of the headhunter ones are redundant but that’s it. Combat axes are also good and destroy crusher walls. I don’t like DS4, but I’d never call it bad. Learn to seperate the two concepts and maybe your arguments will make sense.

You can play an auric with literally just your autogun out and get top damage and kills and never have to take your melee out, just krak crushers or build for brittleness. They’re strong on aurics. It’s not just that they “can clear aurics” it’s that they actively destroy most targets on aurics, other than carapace, which as a vet you can however build for. I’ve no idea where your idea that it can’t kill ragers or maulers comes from but it’s surely not from using it.

It’s absolutely crazy that you keep flipflopping between denying this then claiming you just don’t personally like them. Braced and infantry auto are STRONG, overtuned even. Claiming they need buffs because they don’t do well on Havoc? Absolute nonsense. The game must be balanced around the base game, not Havocs.

Stop trying to play the victim card with “you’re trying to be elitist” when you’re the one who tried to bck up your opinion with your true survivor title. I’m sorry you’re upset that I said it doesn’t mean jackshit. It really doesn’t though. If you can’t dodge crushers inbetween killing them with a combat axe you are genuinely simply just experiencing a skill issue and it’s not a balance problem, true survivor or not.

Saying autoguns are weak and need buffs on auric is on the same level as saying zarona revolver needs buffs. You are just comparing it to stuff that’s even more OP. It doesn’t actually need buffs, it’s perfectly powerful.

PS: You rarely see exec stance autogun in play because shredder nade DS shout is the cookiecutter OP stuff and most people playing this game need every crutch they can get

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It’s amazing that people forgot that Columnus autogun was the defacto best gun in the game until it got power creeped by the countless buffs to other guns. Recon just does everything it can do but better and with literally infinite ammo.

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Ah, yes, autoguns are definitely on the same level as revolvers which cleave crit through multiple enemies and specials in the time it takes autoguns to kill one of them.

I guess there are only overtuned and OP weapons with you, no matter which weapon we discuss it’s only those buzzwords.

While you play Exe Stance melee perfectly, not taking any damage in melee with a build that has one of the lowest survivability in the game. “Just dodge bro, you can easily kill Crushers one after the other with chainaxe in that build, skill issue”.

But I’m the one making bad arguments, OK.

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The only autogun that’s still good is the broken one that everyone ran in the past. Columnus, I believe. And the problem is, Psyker with Scriers Gaze completely blows Vet out of water both on recons and autoguns in auric.

Didn’t I say exactly that though?

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This is what happens when Fatshark decides that the solution to overpowered things is to buff others to be even better. The game has been in a nuclear balance arms race for an entire year.

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I play other games. It’s not that big of a deal, aside from few notorious weapons like Duelling Sword.

In Helldivers 2 you have weapons with infinite ammo baked into base kit, weapons that oneshot hardest targets in the game in one projectile.

In Deep Rock Galactic every single weapon is viable on 5th difficulty, which is way easier than even Darktide’s normal Damnation.

Only Darktide/Vermintide players like to fake drama about middling picks like Autoguns being “overtuned”. Putting “OP” and “autogun” in the same sentence in the age of armored elite squads that will drain your ammo instantly is franky outrageous and couldn’t be more far from how the game is played in actual auric and Havoc games.

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I don’t know why you would bring up video games with a fraction of the skill expression of Tide games in a discussion about a Tide game and I don’t know why you would be shooting an autogun at armor clumps (even though Onslaught lets you get away with that anyways). Ammo is definitely not an issue in Auric, which loops us back around to Havoc being a gimmicky mode.

At this point I don’t get into big arguments with people on the forums because I have no idea what your idea of a good balance baseline is and I imagine that we will not see eye to eye on it ever.

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