Yup, with good ranged there is no way to not being carried, that is what this is about!.
Surely I can charge in and cleave and kill something, but that does not alter the fact that I do not need to. Since I do not need to, I’m carried even if do as much damage as others.
That is why it’smore fun with a meele bases team, takes more skill, more cooperation, even more awerness and tactical play.
That’s not true. Good melee players perform very well even with good ranged players on the team.
If two man carry a trunk without effort, there is no need for 3rd. Regardless how strong(good) hi is.
Same thing would happen with a mediocre melee player mixed in with good ones. The “ranged meta” just isn’t a thing as much as people want it to be. It’s purely a skill issue. There’s a case to be made for making melee easier to use but a lot of people seem to be doing fine with it so I’m not so sure.
why is this even feedback. What is the use of a ranged character running out of ammo frequently. What is the point of that? I dont understand why you want to make the game artificially harder. Where is the fun in this change ? How does it benefit the game in anyway? Do you play legend or is this a recruit level change that would make that more “interesting” for you.
A ranged career should easily be able to fire into a quarter of a map due to things like random pickups. But being able to fire at a near 100% of a map for more safety (relatively) than melee is the problem. You either decrease damage to be on par with ammo not being a limited resource (which would be stupid), or you decrease ranged uptime to ~40% of a map through their OWN gen alone. Which puts value back into ammo pickups and ammo boxes and promotes smart play in the form of conservation. Or hell, if people want to tout the skill mantra as much as they do, feel free to reduced ranged careers health by 25 so that they’re life is at least more volatile than a WHCs
Yes we talk legend.
Perhaps meele players should not take damage while attacking?
What is the point of meele if you run out of health?
Ohh, meele should have enough health for the complete map, no need to spare a few points.
But again… Why then do tons of melee players have no problem vs skilled ranged players?
I’m all for turning this into a melee focused game, but why gut ranged in the process? Again, BUFF MELEE.
There are a lot of ranged classes that struggle in melee range and deal with a low health pool. Forcing them into poor positioning by limiting ammo to 60% of the map will only bring you back here complaining about ranged constantly dying, and being a detriment to your team. Use the grape between your ears.
I don’t do speculative. I do fine with my slayer. I do just as fine with my Ranger Veteran. It levels of potency I’d say it’s about equal with the slayer coming out ahead in mob grinding but my RV being better in all general situations. I do fine with my WHC. I do fine with my pyro.
The difference is safety. It’s safer to play ranged and in some cases more damaging by a margin. This is fine. What’s not fine is maintaining a period of safety while still having access to fine horde based melee clear wave clear. You want ranged to stay the same? No problem, be more vulnerable to mistakes than a WHC. That’ll fix that right up and allow “skill” naysayers to put their money where their mouth is. Or just reduce the damage output. And indeed they already hit one of those goals. Ranger Veteran is back where he should be and Huntsman isn’t a now unstoppable killing machine. Where Ranger Veteran was before was ridiculous. Being able to finish all my games in the 1.08 beta and the 1.08 release until 1.08.2 with scores like this
Huntsman is different. They might have overnerfed Huntsman a bit, but giving him back the ability to 2/3 shot CWs will fix that. Maybe tune up his boss damage juuuust a little bit. So that they still do higher than usual but aren’t just outright breaking encounters into the point of being trivial just by existing.
Melee is as strong as you can make it without people one shotting Chaos hordes too with little to no thought.
People came here complaining constantly about Slayers and WHCs dying. And those slayers and WHC that wanted to KEEP playing WHC got better. Training wheels are for recruit through champion.
That’s why I said buff melee so it’s more forgiving. Not the damage potential, just make it all round less punishing to use. I’d argue they kinda already do that though via stealth and enhanced dodge or mobility mechanics, attack speed buffs, etc. Every melee character has a get out of jail free card. Ranged characters don’t. RV gets disengage but he’s more close to mid range and hs gets ambush but lolhs now post nerf. They’re also on way longer CDs where melee safeties are pretty spammable.
In general, ranged is kill or be killed where melee can take a lot more punishment and survive way crappier situations.
Don’t you realy understand or you just don’t want to understand what noncence are you talking about? As I said before, with current state of ranged buffing melee acomplishes nothing, but in fact it will only help ranged DPS to properly melee in those rare scenarios when they are forced to go melee. If you got 2+ skilled RDPS with unlimited ammo pool they just shoot down 90% of enemies, so melee based character literally have nothing to do for the most part of the map, he can’t reach creeps before they are shot, and he can shoot every creep, like RDPS do coz he lacks ammo sustain. In such situation it doesn’t matter if you are good or bad, you are literally useless for the most part of the map.
So instead of everything having equal potential, like it is now, you just want melee to be better than ranged. Yeah, no.
Ranged sucking won’t make someone less useless.
That’s what I’m talking about, in current meta ranged and melee are NOT EQUAL AT ALL! And you just pretend not to notice it. Well, I see no point in arguing with you, coz you just don’t even try to understand opinions that are different from your own.
Well you’ve got veteran ranged and melee players in this thread saying they are. Have you tried to understand that? When we say, “stop turtling and go kill something” we get “but we’ll wipe” or “but I’m scared of packrats.” This is very much a skill issue.
Most melee characters have more than enough ranged potential that they can compete during the periods where they’re not in melee range and, once in melee range, how much do we really need FS to hold our hands? Weapons need to be buffed, yes, but this is still more of a skill issue and asking for half the game to be nerfed if asinine.
As it should be. The trade off to that is the ability to handle things that will actually kill you.
Waystalker gets the ability to kill specials (and some elites) from free fire
As does Sienna which also gets the ability to ace tankier elites
BH outright can remove targets (and does this for CWs)
Ranger Veteran DOES get a get out of jail free card which also conveniently is attached to being able to murder elites, specials, and hordes.
Huntsman gets to go invisible and then ace elites.
At this point in Legend, nobody should be dying from a raw horde. People die from elites, specials, and the occasional boss spawn all during a horde. People now regularly ace patrols regardless of what jacked up situations pull them. Mob grinding and situations where your “get out of free card” is applicable is a job that anybody can and is expected to do. Dealing with jacked up situations such as pulling two sets of 5 berserkers or eliminating two horde chasing hookrats are situations that somebody with a special/elite deletion button or state (every single ranged character) excels at. And as stated before, that’s fine. In this aspect fatshark created a balance when comparing skills to the other for the jobs that they’re supposed to do. The problem is everything else.
Ha
Sienna can fill her ult up in seconds and that’s another topic altogether.
ult timing is based on impact. Something like Waystalker is (1:10) shouldn’t be if WHC’s career skill is (3:00) but no longer the 100% it had touted from the beta.
The only melee centric careers with spammable ults are Foot Knight (to an extent), Handmaiden, Slayer, and though nobody plays it that much Battle Wizard. And you’ll be hard pressed to find anybody that agrees that Battle Wizards teleport is anywhere close to as good as around corner high-priority special/elite deletion of Waystalker or BHs/Pyro/Huntsman’s ability to just delete a high priority target while also doing great damage to bosses. (Bosses being a topic you really don’t want to get into right now)
Lastly
Melee doesn’t need to be more forgiving. When you get close, you need an appropriate risk of taking damage. This risk needs to be proportionately higher the higher the difficulty goes. You mitigate this risk by (where applicable) using your ranged weapon. For the characters that can, you can also use your career skill. Thinning elite clusters, safely dispatching of specials, and even removing large portions of a horde. You would then, upon doing sufficient job CLEAN UP with melee.
We’re at a state right now that every single elite and every single ambient can be shot from safety with impunity with no real thought to conservation. Which is where the problem stems. The ratio is all jacked up. Ranged careers and melee careers should be neck in neck at baseline. Ranged doing 40% of a map with ranged should be where we are. If you get an ammo pickup, well that’s more of a map. Melee careers obviously shouldn’t be as good as ranged but still engage in it (for elite and special deletion) and Ranged careers shouldn’t be as good as melee but still engage in it (ambient clear and some wave clear). Unless you’re Sienna anyways who needs her own specific sets of tweaks but is very close to being in that sweet spot…
Speaking out against this particular goal of equality is just wishing for things to stay out of whack. And again it’s clear fatshark is listening. They may have overnerfed Huntsman a little bit but it’s certainly a step in the right direction for ill or woe and really good on Ranger Veteran. My performance at a similar level to my slayer, is at a similar level as opposed to being able to do garbage like this
Since this nerf, it’s nice seeing my performance on two different careers at equal skill levels yield equal results in situations that they excel at. Funny how that works when things get closer and closer to balance.
Yes nothing ever attacks ranged characters. I’ve never had to block or dodge in my life. You make it sound like everything just politely sits still for the team.
It would be more productive to have a discussion about individual careers than asking for half the game to get nerfed.
Again, if good players aren’t having an issue, what’s the issue? Is it really that melee just isn’t as good or is it that some people just aren’t at a level where they can consistently perform yet?
Nice sarcasm but we’re not talking situations like that. Or I could be equally glib and say "yes nothing ever cast tornados at slayers. Yes globadiers don’t ever throw out of LoS. Yes waprfire throwers don’t EVEN exist
We’re talking about baseline. Which is a very clear situation from garbage during hordes. When RV was an unstoppable killing machine, I didn’t even need to use melee even when garbage was on me, because it never was on me because I can be invisible. As WS I use my career skill and go back to spamming my hagbane. And Sienna has so many tools at her disposable when it comes to how she decides she wants to be safe that it boggles my mind why you would be glib at all.
That ranged and melee aren’t balanced with each other yet. A pretty easy to see issue.
If they aren’t balanced, how are skilled melee players consistently getting comparable results with skilled ranged players and vice versa? How are mediocre ranged players getting comparable results to mediocre melee characters and vice versa? These are really simple questions.
This isn’t rocket science. If the classes have balanced output now, what do you think happens when you chip the legs out from under half the careers?
Most of the melee characters have enough range to compete vs ambients. Melee competes just fine during hordes and is way better when a horde isn’t politely funneling in. All of the tools are there, it isn’t the game’s fault or FS’ fault if people aren’t using them effectively.
This thread in a nutshell:
You don’t get comparable result if you’re playing with an actual skilled ranged player because actual skill ranged players can and should be ending maps with around the 12-15k mark (depending on length) with more elites, specials, and boss damage. An example I hope I’ve driven home by my ranger veteran screenshots. But seeing as you probably need more.
(and whoops apologies to players whose name I’ve showed.)
Cute on the “skill by the by” I’ve both duo’d and solo’d many maps so I imagine my level of skill is relatively higher than the bar you’re appealing to for this argument.
You mean if they want to run out of ammo and be useless because they didn’t conserve for specials. Which is exactly what happens during pugs. It’s almost cute how regular that is.
Melee players also benefits from funneling because of a thing called effective cleave range and effective push range. And you’re right, they are better in this one situation during a horde that nobody will be dying too anyways. I can get modest scores on slayer of my own and typically end most matches doing so. I just finished this map for you to prove a point.
But let’s not pretend there isn’t an obvious difference between the two. And no it’s not some stupid “you’re better with RV”. It’s that RV WAS easier to use, does more damage, has a wider array of tools that are more effective, AND has competent abilities to keep itself alive in your so called “non funnel situation”
Lastly, and I forgot to add this point. Let’s pretend that you DO need higher skill to use melee (which some would argue you do), that needs a higher return. So in this narrative you framed, melee would be stronger regardless. Which, I might add, is not the point of any of this. It’s that similar things should perform similarly when both are placed in situations they excel at. And credit where it’s due, Fatshark achieved this with RV. And boy do I miss my guaranteed infinite ammo but boy is it not a better game for it.
The “it’s not OP, I’m just skilled” argument is as old as playing Rogue in vanilla wow. And people used to argue just like you did that it was fine. Which is cute.
