I am genuinely confused about the vet keystones talk

[nCmixam]

@UnLimiTeD

When I want to focus on melee now, I am forced to run around with the revolver out to even get a buff in melee.

Vet is still primarily a ranged class. Basically a “dude who is really good with guns”. When you look at the class from this pov, much of design decisions behind weapon spec fall into place. Yes, you are a cqc focused class. But you are still meant to use your ranged weapon at least as much as your melee weapon.
And imo, if you want to main melee with a revolver on the side, zealot exists, and he will do it much better than the vet.

Edit, here’s the build
I’ll probably toss out tactical awareness because it dosen’t trigger on elites anymore, so here’s 2 points to spend elsewhere.

nC's cqc vet

[Aquamarine]

@nCmixam

Weapon spec is also fine.

I personally agree with this. Sure the ability could do with some better worded conditions but on the whole it does what I need it to because I dont need something with constant uptime, thats a passive not a skill. Something that gives you a sizable DPS spike whenever you have to adapt to new threats is pretty powerful, giving you the strength to quickly contain the situation or make some space before settling back into the usual routine.

Being able to back up, mag-dump some ragers or plink some shotgunners out of the crowd or pin a krak on a crusher, and then dive back in to take back the breathing room lost to the encroaching horde can be the difference between staying in control of a situation vs loosing it. Rather than the keystone itself my complaints are just generally how expensive they are to reach and modify, but that’s more of a complaint with the trees arrangement itself.

[UnLimiTeD]

That’s basically my build (except the fact I used Infiltrate instead, but the pathing is almost the same), only I didn’t take the keystone to instead reach “Rending Strikes”.
If you use weapon specialist purely to occasionally switch to melee to defend yourself, and then back immediately back to ranged, where you employ an automatic weapon, then sure, I guess it works.
It’s just weirdly specific, with conditionals that feel like you’re always wasting potential.
All other classes have keystones that you can slot into an existing build and reliably benefit from them. But yes, if it teek 3 points less to get there, I might actually consider using one.

[nCmixam]

@UnLimiTeD

If you use weapon specialist purely to occasionally switch to melee to defend yourself

I don’t. The point of this build is to be agressive, not defencive.

[nCmixam]

Yeah. I also believe vet must get much more sustain in terms of toughness generation, but that’s the problem with every vet build atm

[JanZamoysky]

@SirStarSap

No, the fact that I have to wait for a bit to get all stacks is not detrimental to the game for me at all.

It is if you care about visibility. A lot of players deal with that by spamming the tag key, to spot specials and even some elites hiding in a horde.As you can imagine that spoils the gains from Focus Target. I rather see a hound in that meat wall in the front of me than not, especially when we cannot rely on audio cues, thanks to all the bugs with these not playing consistently. One of the reasons why I said Fatshark just doesn’t play their game at high diff levels, but the that is common knowledge.

[Reginald]

@Forsion

That way, people who feel “punished” for not having keystone buffs at all time and strength will be satisfied, i hope.

Just let the ultra optimizers cope and seethe. Abilities used when it is efficient not when number max big is peak efficiency in the first place.

[BrutallyCunning]

@Molonious

tagging (…) gets annoying and distracting.

I don’t even.

[Molonious]

@BrutallyCunning

I don’t even.

I need to know about the Crusher that just popped up behind the Psyker, the Daemonhost behind the pack of Gunner’s were about to engage, or the Flamer you just saw but aren’t in a position to engage, not the Shotgunner you’re about to disappear from existence before anyone else can do anything about it. That’s the point I was making.

People keep really going out of their way to seemingly intentionally misinterpret that as “tagging bad”, going so far as cutting qualifying statements from my post, and I’m not sure why.

[BrutallyCunning]

To each their own, but not once has I been distracted by other people tagging enemies. Probably to a high degree because my experience is that I’m usually the only one on the team using this function to begin with. If anything I’d be very happy to play with people like you describe because it helps my awareness since it’s virtually impossible to spot everything in the crowd.

@Molonious

not the Shotgunner you’re about to disappear from existence

OK, keeping it real: tagging is a huge help when aiming, especially when going for headshots. And I go for headshots whenever feasible. So the guy I just tagged and deleted got removed so quickly because of the tag, not despite it…

[Nish]

@Forsion

So you just want plain damage increase? Because Stacks from simple hits or kills that deplete over time is what it is.
But masked like some “mechanic” you can interact with. There is no way to be good or bad with such keystones.

I personally want to be rewarded for doing something exceptional or being efficient at specific thing. I want to have some actually fun mechanics to interact with

But i guess some people just don’t get that, because they feel entitled to have all the best stats at all times with no effort, for some reason.

I think plain stats increases will just take away from the depth of the game, lower the skill ceiling and tunnel evrething in to one almigty, meta build that can do it all.

Sometimes less is more. I wrote these in 5 minutes.

The left side idea I wrote is something everyone wants and with stacks gained on kills it also comes with interesting choices rationing ultimate and such which I guess you just can’t see.

While my right side example fits your description, this also fits in with what half of the other keystones are: Lucky Bullet, Ogryn mid-Keystone, Zealot Crit-keystone, Zealot mobility-keystone… and with another mechanic added and a modifier it could be on par with the other half like Psyker keystones. Again not everything has to be super complicated to be enjoyable.

[Overlord]

@Reginald

Just let the ultra optimizers cope and seethe. Abilities used when it is efficient not when number max big is peak efficiency in the first place.

@Forsion

That way, people who feel “punished” for not having keystone buffs at all time and strength will be satisfied, i hope.

Efficiency in this context is just when you pick the choices that best allow you to play how you want. The whole “lol, let the min-maxers cope and seethe” is not the dunk you guys think it is. . .

@Forsion

I think plain stats increases will just take away from the depth of the game, lower the skill ceiling and tunnel evrething in to one almigty, meta build that can do it all.

Problem here isn’t the skill ceiling, IMO the skill ceiling for most classes, including vet, are mostly fine. It is also worth noting that the changes you’re arguing against do nothing to the skill ceiling, but they do alter the skill floor, ie, they make the class easier to get into, and do well with. That’s what simplification does. Skill ceiling is the limit of what you can do with the class through skill expression, that is pure mechanical skill, and knowledge of the game. All classes are currently pretty accommodating to most skill expression atm. Problem is the skill floor for vet relative to other classes. I go back and forth on this one, but I feel that some of the concerns on this are valid, at least based on my own experiences, and where other people’s seem to be coming from, for whatever these are worth.

Playing around with both my vet and zealot, it’s pretty easy to be competitive performance-wise, and feel like I’m contributing to my team with zealot.

Meanwhile, playing any of my vet builds, I feel like I gotta get extra sweaty to get anything done. I can easily hit 500-800 if I match with mediocre or bad players as vet (even in a good run where no one needs to carry or clutch), but the moment I match with any other class on my level of skill (or any psyker running a meta DPS set up with god rolls) or above the game basically turns into spectator mode for me as vet. Bores me, and makes me feel redundant, meanwhile as a zealot I can easily keep up and feel like I’m contributing in those situations (a little less so with competent psykers though).

So breaking it down, a lot of different factors from the class’ talent tree layout, point economy, weapon balance, and the same for other classes all conspire to basically make it disproportionally harder for vets to perform as well as the other classes even though on paper they’re technically fine.

I.E. it’s harder to meaningfully perform relative to others running other classes when we equalize for skill.

It all makes playing vet feel like ass, therefore it makes the UX bad and leads people to believe the class was nerf hammered. Tbh I’m not sure what could be done to address this. Addressing the tree layout, and point tax issues would probably alleviate some the issue, but I’m not sure it’s going to be enough. I feel like there’s a more fundamental issue here, if I were to hazard a guess it’s that all classes don’t really depend on eachother to do well, and there’s little to no synergy between them all. Playing vet often feels like you’re dependent on other classes to perform well, but they don’t need you to do so. Problem is that if they tackle this they just risk turning the game into a PvE MOBA or Overwatch, where team composition can make or break runs, and that just destroys the current matchmaking paradigm.

[brosgw]

@BrutallyCunning

OK, keeping it real: tagging is a huge help when aiming, especially when going for headshots. And I go for headshots whenever feasible. So the guy I just tagged and deleted got removed so quickly because of the tag, not despite it…

Especially when the special/elite was knocked down behind a horde and couldn’t see. Or through fire/smoke, etc.

[Nayl]

I tend to tag a lot for that purpose, the game is dark and it can be hard to pick out elite/specialist heads in a hord so tagging is a big help. With Focus now there’s a cost associated with tagging too freely since you’ll spend your focus stacks so if anything I’d think it would encourage less tag spam. With the potential downside that you’ll be discouraged from tagging hounds and trappers that ran off somewhere.

[Forsion]

@Nish

The left side idea I wrote is something everyone wants and with stacks gained on kills it also comes with interesting choices rationing ultimate and such which I guess you just can’t see.

I saw it but didnt elaborate, coz i am lazy. Sorry
Its not really about all of your suggestions specifically, its about similar, plain ones overall.

@Nish

this also fits in with what half of the other keystones

Yes, i know and i don’t really like some.

@Nish

Sometimes less is more.

@Nish

not everything has to be super complicated to be enjoyable.

Agree.
The best mechanics is those, which allow for different gameplay opportunities, while being simple. But i think it’s really hard to achieve for devs.
So i accept straightforward complications even though they worse.

Not advocating for overcomplication, but there’s got to be some at least.
And a lot of suggestions i see just remove it all and make everything oversimplified, plain and boring. Which i don’t like.

[Forsion]

@Overlord

changes you’re arguing against do nothing to the skill ceiling

But they could, that’s why i argue. I also don’t mind lowering skill floor

[Nish]

@Forsion

I saw it but didnt elaborate, coz i am lazy. Sorry
Its not really about all of your suggestions specifically, its about similar, plain ones overall.

Fine, but then you should have replied to those other posts maybe. Your reply read like a rant that wasn’t even fit to half of what I was describing.

@Forsion

The best mechanics is those, which allow for different gameplay opportunities, while being simple. But i think it’s really hard to achieve for devs.
So i accept straightforward complications even though they worse.

Different gameplay opportunities or natural evolution of gameplay. I don’t think the current left and right keystones fit into this category, they are terrible.

@Forsion

Not advocating for overcomplication, but there’s got to be some at least.
And a lot of suggestions i see just remove it all and make everything oversimplified, plain and boring. Which i don’t like.

I’m not against complexity if it isn’t forcing you to do something that clashes with the natural game flow.

On the same note, I don’t think the complexity is the problem people have with it. Weapon specialist isn’t complex, it’s super simple. It just feels sh*t to play.

[nCmixam]

@Nish

Different gameplay opportunities or natural evolution of gameplay. I don’t think the current left and right keystones fit into this category, they are terrible.

Excuse me, but how marksman’s focus isnt a natural evolution of gameplay for the subclass that is built specifically around hitting the weakspots?

[Nish]

Excuse me, but how can you call “lmao stand still” an evolution and not a devolution of playstyle? Same with WS with “pull your gun every 10 seconds unless…!”.

[nCmixam]

You don’t have to stay still. You know that right? I mean, if you are ads shooting enemies then you are probably already standing still, so idk what exactly changes for you here. Stacks don’t go out all at once the moment you move. You have enough time even without the “free move” time to do a dodge in case of trapper/hound/mutie without losing any stacks.
Same as with weapon spec. You don’t have to pull out your weapon every 10 seconds. You do it when you need/want to pull out the weapon. And when you do, you get the buff. A short one, yes, but it’s usually enough for you to deal with whatever threat made you swith the weapon in the first place.

That’s kinda what this entire topic is about. For some reason people look at those keystones kinda backwards. I’m ofc not saying that they shouldnt be improved, because they definetly should. But their core idea and mechanics are fine for what they supposed to do.