One of them is an ez win - The double link node in the center path above the krak grenade.
I’d feel a lot more favourably about the keystones if they weren’t so expensive to get to and fill out.
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This is just me personally but:
I can do random damnation runs with Vet and still do alright. Specifically just with focusing on revolver.
Do I use any keystones? No. I do not. They’re not worth it. So it kinda sucks that the main feature is completely avoidable of the tree rework.
Compared to the other way I play the classes I would say vet is probably my weakest to play as right now and lacks the most identity. I can achieve the same kind of output in damage (before and after the latest patch, except to monsters) … with a lot less durability.
I feel like the most optimal path I have chosen is what a lot of people will similarly choose. I feel like the changes create more homogenization rather than diversification:
I have just been playing around with other combos and even trying smoke grenades (learned to like them when range enemies mess me up with no cover in sight, but still not sure it’s worth dealing with bulwarks and monsters or carapace when my revolver is out).
Most still want survivalist, most still don’t like executioners stance and likely going with voice of command. Most still will likely go with demolition stockpile. And most still want always prepared and determined as range focus.
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short version: those players that have a fit when they can’t minmax their build to weird degrees and like making spreadsheets to find breakpoints are having a hard time with these garbage additions that lock a fair chunk of efficiency behind weird playstyle nonsense.
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Ok, what is your idea of FUN keystones for vet?
Seriously? Man, I’ve played RPGs, including Only War (the 40k paper and pen one all about guardsmen. Funnily enough, Fatshark must’ve looked at it too, some of their old class ideas were named after them). Some of these books have reams of cool ideas, especially the Only War book! As a tabletop DM, I pride myself on helping players find fun builds with interesting skills.
Am I going to sit here right now and waste my time inventing some keystones for you to pick at, all so no one at Fatshark can read them and I can feel miserable? Nope.
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Good for you. But you’re not the only GM out there.
I mean. I just asked for what you think a fun keystone for the vet is. Because i’m genuinely interested to read people’s opinions on the matter, after all, that’s what this forum is for. If you don’t want to share your opinion for some reason, you might as well just say so, not go on for a rant about you being a tabletop GM.
Oof, wasn’t a rant, more just me stating that I have some experience on a related subject. I probably came off as harsh though. Just misunderstood the tone in your message I guess. Sorry.
I think that keystones for the other classes seem pretty neat? I wasn’t so thrilled when I saw the Vets though, just had a sinking feeling.
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Left side:
Sustained fire: Gain stack on ranged kills, using ult reloads weapon based on the number of stacks. Fully reload on full stack. Stacks decay over time.
Modifier Quickswap: When ulting equip your ranged weapon (disabled with Exa stance).
Modifier Agile combatant: Melee kills also give you stacks.
Modifier Blessed bullet: When Sustain Fire activates the first shot gains a Crit chance boost based on stack number.
Right side:
Deadly focus: Getting melee kills gets you stacks, on reaching full stacks gain a buff: AS and Dodge distance and such 8-15 second duration. Gaining stacks during Deadly Focus refreshes the buff.
Modifier Brush it off: While the deadly focus is active melee hits no longer stun you.
Modifier Adrenaline Burst: When Deadly focus triggers gain Toughness (or toughness over time).
Just quick ideas, nothing more.
6 Likes
A fun keystone is one that either gives its benefits through normal gameplay for the class or through some mechanism that is both fun and natural to engage with.
Marksman’s Focus and Weapon Specialist do not meet these criteria.
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Tbh i’ll take current vet keystones above disrupt destiny which you basically don’t have any control over at which enemy it marks or burst limiter override which might as well dont exist for any weapon other than heavy stubbers.
Imo, i think that for the 2 of them general idea was right. For weakspot one and melee one. Execution might be a bit poor and bloated, but general direction is ok.
I just wish the middle one had something to support rapidfire/hardhitting weapons instead of… this.
My idea for this was that vet is a ranged weapon specialist, right? So ok, left one is precision that is focused on hitting weakspots. Right one is a melee tree, so something for cqc.
Leaves only those types of weapons i said about before. They might as well fit into the middle tree, but fatshark decided to lean into “commander” role more, which is… Ok.
Yeah absolutely. I can see why they might choose a leader role, but it does leave Vet feeling weirdly geared towards three playstyles and leaves out a pretty obvious one. Precision and CQC like you said seem fine as concepts, even if the Keystones themselves need… adjusting (to put it mildly).
Another serious thing colouring my opinion of them all is they feel so damn expensive. You feel every point you place down there like a gutshot.
Maybe with some work this skill tree can improve, but I know a lot of people just straight up hate it right now. Fair few people wanted a rollback.
Exept they are?
Imo marksman’s focus should just get camo baked in by default. Then it will be perfectly fine. You don’t tend to move too much when you ads shooting specials anyway. And as it is, a single dodge is not enough to remove even one stack of focus. And you already lose them one by one, and not all at once.
Weapon spec is also fine. It’s just too bloated imo. You don’t have to be constantly switching weapons for sole purpose of triggering the keystone. If you are playing as cqc vet, you’re already doing that. Basically how i did it: unload my brauto into approaching horde. Switch to melee, clear the space for myself. When i have enough of said space, pull out my brauto, quickly reload it and keep unloading. Or just unload those 33% of the mag. It’s mostly enough to get you 1 kill for the melee stack. Rinse and repeat. Idk, the play for this keystone came to me pretty naturally.
Imo, that’s the main problem of them. They are too expencive to get to, and 2 of them are too bloated for their own good. Trim a bit more fat from the tree itself, streamline the keystones (like weapon spec has 6 nodes total wtf), fix the inconsitencies (weapon spec only giving crit to the first shot etc), and they will be decent.
3 Likes
No they’re not. Chasing nothing but headshots so that you don’t feel like you’ve wasted your talent points isn’t fun or natural, it’s exhausting.
Switching weapons when you don’t need to just to refresh the buff isn’t fun or natural. Neither is keeping a weapon out so that you don’t burn the buff on the other one before there’s a chance to use it.
The fix for the latter is pretty straightforward: Apply the buff when you attack an enemy, not when you pull the weapon out. People are holding the last weapon they used in an effort to preserve the other weapon’s buff for the next fight anyway. Might as well make it less clunky to do.
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They literally already got this right with inexorable judgement (a keystone I have always wanted basically copy pasted for Veteran). I guess they felt they had to differentiate it more and the end result is just much more awkward as a result.
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To me, the issue is not with vets tagging too often.
The issue is with most people basically never tagging anything.
And no, they do not barely tag anything because their awareness is so high and they decide not to tag the enemies that are easy to see. I guarantee you that most players barely tag anything, because they are incapable of thinking about it and using an additional key.
Just like most players seem to be unaware of their blitz ability‘s existence for the most part of each mission (until they remember and then throw away all of their grenades within a tiny timeframe).
One is yellow, the other is red.
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That’s what i was telling too. You don’t have to do it. If you play a cqc focused vet this just will come naturally.
And tbh i’m fine with changin activation to “on hit” instead of “on switch”. It honestly will change little for me personally.
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So you just want plain damage increase? Because Stacks from simple hits or kills that deplete over time is what it is.
But masked like some “mechanic” you can interact with. There is no way to be good or bad with such keystones.
I personally want to be rewarded for doing something exceptional or being efficient at specific thing. I want to have some actually fun mechanics to interact with
But i guess some people just don’t get that, because they feel entitled to have all the best stats at all times with no effort, for some reason.
I think plain stats increases will just take away from the depth of the game, lower the skill ceiling and tunnel evrething in to one almigty, meta build that can do it all.
Maybe the compromise for that would be to allow people chose keystones for free. And leave points to spend on plain stats only. So points will strictly determine base strength of your build.
That way, people who feel “punished” for not having keystone buffs at all time and strength will be satisfied, i hope.
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Well, I’ve listed my experience with that above.
But, in short: My melee builds usually have a sidearm (the ranged option) that can quickly take out specials. After all, the idea is to main melee. So I pick the revolver, which is way overtuned.
When I want to focus on melee now, I am forced to run around with the revolver out to even get a buff in melee. Then I better not accidentally switch weapons for a split second and waste all my buffs - my mousewheel sadly has a single position where that happens.
If I actually invested in those further points, I could get 2 shots back in the revolver after 10 melee kills, but if I don’t, then the bonus chance of an (already almost guaranteed) critical and higher firerate don’t really do anything for me, and neither does the extra stamina. Refreshing the dodge limit would have been nice.
So I don’t use the keystones, even though I feel that this playstyle should fit one of them.
It’s kind of weird; All my other classes go straight for a keystone, and every loadout I have on them uses one, with or without the sub nodes. Yet on veteran, after some deliberation, I consciously decided against it. Maybe it’s just that picking them means missing out on other good nodes, because there’s so many of them, and maybe that’s a good thing - being spoiled for choice.
But I just feel like a lot of the vet’s kit is a bit too clunky, still.
If the keystones, unlike some in other classes, require actively playing around them, they should offer bigger bonuses than those that do not.
It is not just the effect, it’s the feel it gives to players. Like how Zealot’s Martyrdom absolutely doesn’t require you to hurt yourself to quickly get more bonuses, but some players still do it;
The keystones give off a feeling of wasting bonuses if you don’t do specific things.
As for weapon specialist: Just activating the melee bonus once you’ve switched to your melee weapon and there’s enemies within 8 meters would be sufficient, but on attack is also nice. That’d give it a nice uptime. And yeh, for the incredibly short duration, on shot sounds nice for ranged.
1 Like
Call me a minimalist, but these are beautifully simple and straightforward. Not to mention immediately gratifying. These are orders of magnitude better than the heavily conditional, limited, and situational keystones we currently have, all of which read like they’re written by copyright lawyers, rather than someone with fun in mind.
3 Likes