I’m not suggesting that from this we will implement a vast swathe of changes to gimp ranged, but there are certainly things we can improve to make being in melee range less unpredictable as per V1. I’ll leave the choices up to those who design the game - undoubtedly that’s not me (be thankful for that!).
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Yeah I agree the piercing on ranged shots should be toned down a bit.
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Granted, but the memory of The Great Huntsman Nuke still haunts me, so I felt it was important to make the points (even though they have of course been made countless times in countless other threads.)
Good to know. It probably won’t be an easy fix - but I think a good place to start is to look at horde density/numbers vs VT1, and then see how the cleave/stagger/range of melee weapons haven’t really been increased much to compensate for this increase.
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Straight line hordes make it super easy for melees to kill them too tho - it’s easy no matter what career you’re on.
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As long as we can establish an open dialogue between both players and developers, then we have essentially accomplished what we wanted. Players in general just want to understand the rationale behind the decisions made. I’m sure developers would also like to know our thoughts on the current state of things. I am not so foolish to think that immediate changes would be made. On the contrary, I just want an honest and open dialogue between the developers.
Maybe this might lead to some positive changes, maybe it wont. Either way, this should sate player’s curiosity. I’m sure many will take this as an opportunity to try to ask the developers what their thoughts are on the meta, current balance, and more importantly what’s in store for the future.
I greatly appreciate that we managed to come this far. Hopefully those toxic few don’t ruin it for the rest of us. Thank you for bearing with us, Hedge.
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Yeah you’ll actually do more damage in melee in those situations, just ranged is convenient. If I’m “competing” with other people ranging I’ll just walk I’d to the horde and kill everything first.
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Please stop bringing up the Great Huntsman Nuke™ as my doctor says it’s not good for me to keep encountering it. Apparently it’s no good for my blood pressure or my temper or my sudden increase in alcohol consumption.
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I’m afraid I have to keep bringing it up until FS rectifies their mistake… So… Probably might as well go shopping for more drinkypoos, because that might… Take a while 
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I’m already flat-out on it. On a school night too. Well done.
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Thats false because as soon as you get close they will start to splite and spread, so you only profit like 2 sec thats all.
Well I mange just fine dealing with hordes in melee, especially line hordes. Maybe… Git Gud eh? 
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As a long-term V1 player, I love the flow between melee and ranged. Earthing rune and scavenger were really good traits, and IMHO, it would do this game good. I have seen scoreboards where mostly pyros but also BH and WS had single digit melee kills and 200-300 ranged kills. It’s just cheesy.
I dont understand why FS thought it a good idea to have a trait on a ranged weapon that allowed to generate ammo without requiring the player to do anything other than hitting targets (scrounger, obv). Im completely fine with conservative shooter as it requires more effort than brainlessly spamming shots into a horde and come out with more ammo than before. Scrounger should be nerfed down to 1 ammo.
Ranged classes will still be better at utilizing the ammo. Its not like a ranged class is only classified as such purely by its means to generate ammo. They have offensive abilities that make a world of difference in bossfights (looking at you burning head stunlock pyro) and heaps of QoL that makes spamming ranged way easier.
All in all, it depends on how the ammo trait on melee would work. If it would be exactly the same as in V1, namely 10-24% chance on kill to regain 5% of maximum ammo rounded down, i really dont see any issue. They do sacrifice their swift slaying or resourceful combatant.
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I m not talking about your ability to deal with horde but the actual benefit to melee against a straight line horde 
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It still equates to melee classes being uniquely better suited to generate ammo than ranged classes. If you don’t see that as a problem, then we’re not playing the same game. Overall melee classes have access to the same ranged weapons. Some ranged classes have more range before damage drop-off, but that’s about it.
I could likewise say how melee characters have endlessly more HP, CC, QoL and tankiness and are far more suited to the melee you want ranged characters to engage in. No matter how you slice it, ammo on melee would be insanely powerful on tanks, while forcing ranged careers to NOT do their job, but instead jump into frontlines, desperately trying to get some kills before the melee classes so they can actually get some ammo back.
Its a truly terrible idea.
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Why would the ranged classes suddenly lose their way to generate ammo? Nothing changes for them if that trait makes it in. Its not like releasing it binds directly into nerfing scrounger.
Apart from that, right now its usually melee characters desperately trying to get some kills before the ranged classes so they can have some fun in this melee focused game. Thats fine?
We are usually not trying to bring scavenger back onto weapons but as talents for range focused careers. Meaning range focused careers would be at the advantage in ammo regen.
Fair enough, I may have mistakenly taken your reply as a defense of the OP (way way up top) - though you did say scrounger was bad. I don’t agree, as some ranged classed rely entirely on that one trait to generate ammo at all.
I still think it might make melee chars too strong if you can build them for ammo regen. VT1 didn’t have careers so anything could be built to do anything, and such a trait was needed.
I think it would break more than it would solve in VT2.
Edit: I do just fine as melee in legend. It’s not super fun if it’s a skewed party with 3 ranged, but I never feel like I’m desperately trying to get kills. It’s not uncommon at all for a Zealot or Slayer to have top kills.
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Meh, perhaps. But the best ranged weapons don’t even use piercing to get kills. Hagbane nukes hordes because of AoE damage, beam stun locks hordes and makes them spread out, other Mage weapons are all AoE nukes. Nerfing piercing damage will just make Salty boi’s repeater cross bow the only weapon people take, cause 3 arrows through a horde are going to kill more than the normal bow or guns. And people won’t use any of the elfs other bows, hagbane will be the only choice. It will have the same effects on other classes as well.
yea… key word, when they get close they will start to spread. You pushing into a horde in single file with a melee cleave weapon lets you cut down 3-6 enemies at once. And then more enemies fill the same spot and don’t have time to spread out. Unless there’s stormvermin or heavy chaos in the horde, they won’t have time to spread out.
You’ve never had me as a WS 
I think I’ve only played with Licious-D off this forum xD
Huhh, in legend you dont cleave that much and even if you do well, ennemies will clip through each other and spread. What you describe mostly work in tigh spot (tunnels etc…) or if you dont get aggro and you have teammates further behind you. Also note that if you get close they migh just start a running attack witch wont allow you to hit them as soon as you wish (happens a lot with fanatics).Also if you cleave that much it means some of them will get pushed on the sides and so they technicaly “spread” and can circle you…
I think it s safe to say that we have all witnessed some skating ennemies witch will just circle you (as if they re trying to fil a slot system)
I really wonder where you see these kind of things because i play a lot of melee career and 90%of the time when the horde come in a straight line they will start to spread as soon as you reach them…
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Any character/weapon combo I run seems perfectly capable of allowing me to hold W and spam LMB, maybe with a lil side dodging thrown in during chaos hordes. Everything tends to die before it spreads and if it’s already spread out everyone can just circle strafe it for days as long as the game doesn’t bug out. It’s the bugs that are the problem.
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