Golden Toughness Discussion

More random ramblings from yours truly. This time I figured I’d create a topic discussing Golden Toughness, as it seems to be a contentious topic, and I felt ‘detailing it out’ was worth doing (with my token bullet point ‘solution’ at the end). Can probably skip to that if you understand how golden toughness works, but I recently realized truly how the systems of the game interact within my head more recently, so I figured, ehh, I’ll just put it all here and people can read it if they want to.

But, basically, Golden Toughness functions exactly like it says on the tin. It’s ‘over toughness’, or toughness that is placed on top of your current health bar. One can consider it like an overshield (a mechanic that’s one of my favorite in video games, can’t describe why but ever since halo I’ve always loved any game that gives me ‘more than my maximum health’ in some way), but with one key difference.

See, in darktide, while you are at 100% toughness, all damage is mitigated. Both range and melee damage is entirely mitigated, with only melee bleeding through once your toughness drops below 100%, based on the percentage of toughness still remaining. One can look up examples if they want, but the main point is how Golden toughness interacts with this system.

For it does not simply ‘increase your max toughness’, it gives you MORE than 100% toughness. For an easy example, if you have 100 toughness, and a veteran shouts at you, your now 150 toughness is not 100%. It is 150%. Why does this matter? Well, it means now, as per the system above, you can not take any HP damage until you hit 100 toughness again. Because the golden toughness always considers you ‘at/above 100% toughness’, no hit is able to bleed through, thusly making the one heavily punishing system in this game (getting hit with multiple melee attacks in rapid succession) a complete moot point, as you can now live above your maximum toughness value, and mitigate all damage that you would ever receive.

The main kicker to implementing Golden Toughness like this, is the fact that you are allowed to ALSO regen it. This makes a character practically impervious to damage while golden toughness is on them, as it also acts like an added layer on top of your toughness when interacting with ‘non-standard’ attacks like pox burster explosions. This means the attack first nukes your golden toughness, then does it’s damage to your main toughness, instead of nuking your toughness and doing that damage to health. This increases your survivability by a drastic margin, as even if it is nuked off of you, through working through all of one’s classes ability to get toughness back, they can get back ‘over that threshhold’, and become unkillable monsters once again.


This is what makes Golden Toughness so contentious, as it effectively functions right now as a ‘low skill enabler’, while breaking the high skill bracket wide open. If you know what you are doing, you are immortal with golden toughness, if you don’t? it still lets you function alright with the big boys, as all our mistakes are made up for and then some. It’s what has resulted in the current balance patches as of recent, making gunners so heavy of a threat in normal game and havoc alike as to shred that golden HP off you more often, and the general Havoc difficulty modifiers nuking the players stats to require 100% golden HP up time to feel playable. It’s trying to fix the problem without nerfing the problem, and to that end resulting in the problem becoming a required staple, or requiring a lot of player investment to thusly mitigate (my 1 gunner resist had to become 2 to play malestrom at the same level on all my none Golden Toughness having builds, for instance).

I feel this is the wrong way to go about doing it, but ‘fixing’ Golden Toughness isn’t so clear cut either. Many have expressed their pain in it’s uptime, calling for nerfs in player CDR nodes or outright removal of them to compensate for it’s constant in game abuse. Some have asked for the outright removal of it all together. Others ask for the values of it to be brought down to barely noticable values. And I’m sure other solutions have been proposed as well (including the one that I will focus on below all this), that can echo their sentiments in the possible conversation to come.

One thought that came to my head (that might have also been said before) is the idea of making golden toughness truly toughness. Adding it to the max of your toughness instead of adding it on top, thusly the 150 toughness from the example way above is now your 100% for the duration of the effect. I feel this is a possible solution, but I don’t like it personally as it doesn’t feel ‘overshield’ like. It makes golden toughness into effectively super toughness nodes, removing the point of it in my eyes as you’ll still want 100% of your toughness at all times to keep from taking incidental damage, having more of it is nice and makes that a bit easier, but not nearly as much as having toughness over your max does.

But, I do think that it’s uptime is the main issue. And to that end, I think this solution would be ‘the best’, and would allow for the devs to not have to make shooters so punishing, while still allowing Golden Toughness to feel ‘strong’, but not oppressive:

  • Make it so Golden Toughness can not be regenerated.

That’s my main point, with some added bit of ‘fluff’. Make it so When a Veteran shouts, you get the buff you do now. A character can regenerate up into that golden toughness buff, but as soon as that golden toughness gets knocked off of them (via gunman or melee or what have you), the buff falls off immediately. This effect mainly in the game as to allow those that shout outside of their max toughness range to still get the +50 bump and be able to get the buff, but those that are maxed out just get the golden toughness that will then fall off if hit. Chorus is allowed to regenerate golden toughness the way it does now, but it’s the ONLY effect that does so, and has the same effect where in once the golden toughness gets knocked off of you, that part of the buff fades, leaving only the optional buffs of damage or DR.

Every other Toughness regen effect in the game caps at 100% toughness, and is unable to regenerate toughness beyond that 100% threshold. This allows golden toughness to keep it’s main strength (mitigating damage, and allowing a Iron Will Vet to be a bit more reckless), but not allowing one to be strictly immortal for it’s duration. If you get hit a bunch, you will still lose it, and you will still go down. But it gives you breathing room, as it is meant to.

Further nerfs can come is a well, possible value nerfs (like hitting Shout to like 30-40 and hitting Chorus to 60-80 or something), but I feel this change will create a noticeable effect to golden toughness. And if more needs to be done, it can be, but I think this is a good start. Lets it stay strong, but keeps it from being truly broken, and opens the way for the other two none golden toughness having classes to possibly gain small ways for them to have it as well (25 golden toughness on shield cast perhaps, Taunt gaining Golden toughness as it’s asking everything in range to hit the ogryn, so mitigating damage would be of great help). But that’s a topic for if this actually does get done/feels not op still.

But yeah, thank you for reading my Tedtalk, I hope it was informative and if nothing else, the idea’s within brought clarity to one’s own thoughts and idea about it! Cause I do adore this mechanic a lot, but there’s a reason most if not all other implementation of Overshields in games don’t allow you to regenerate them like a normal shield. It gets, rather busted pretty much immediately. As now it’s not Overshields, it’s just more better shields.

5 Likes

I skipped to your single bullet point, saving me about 5 minutes.

If that’s the key take out, then sure, I’m on board.

4 Likes

Yeah for sure, why I said what I said at the start about the bullet point. I figured ‘context’ would be cool for those that care about it (not sure how many people truly understand how golden toughness works), or for those that disagree and want to know my reasoning, but, I’m sure many do and can get what I mean, so by all means if that’s all you read it’s there for that reason XD.

But yes, glad you are!

Then it would have almost no value anymore.

The value of gold toughness comes from the ability to tank a hit that would otherwise hurt.
Because you can refill it, you probably have it when you get hit by something that would otherwise hurt.

If gold toughness could not be regenerated, it would effectively not do anything most of the time.
Most of the time when you get hit, you take one simple hit and quickly regen your toughness. In that case it does not matter if you have gold toughness or not.

So if gold toughness could not be regenerated, it would effectively be deleted by the first hit that you receive.
Unless that first hit is an overhead, a sniper shot or a poxburster, there is very little value in it.

At that point, it would probably be better to just remove “over toughness“ and replace it with a strong toughness dmg reduction buff.
So a golden toughness bar would represent that dmg reduction being present.
That way, the effect would not be gone immediately after taking a single hit from any source.

Chip dmg should still go through overtoughness.

It would still be invaluable vs ranged while reducing dmg received vs melee, but not the LOLOL I’M INVINCIBLE as is now.

2 Likes

Gold toughness should be allowed to regenerate, but I don’t think it should completely nullify any and all damage you otherwise would have taken. It makes it really cheap.

1 Like

I actually want Golden Toughness removed or changed so it wouldn’t block everything in existance like Crusher’s Overhead


That I like too :+1:, it’ll make melee enemies more of the threat, while still being able to counter shooters


I guess that little nerf would make some of the difference, but to me personally it’s not enough

I think this is a great idea, would love to try this :+1:

1 Like

I have only recently started playing with Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude since Fury of the Faithful was nerfed. And now that I’m used to it and I start having fun again, people call for a nerf to Chorus.

Sooooo typical… I would swear you guys do it on purpose. What’s next? You noticed I’ve switched from Eviscerator to Chainaxe and now you’ll ask for nerf on Chainaxe I bet.

Disclaimer: I do not play Havoc and no interest in artificially induced difficulty like that. And if some clever people have found a way to beat Havoc with Chorus, then kudos to them. I’m perfectly fine with exceptionally good players able to fully realize its potential and becoming invulnerable, since this is LITERALLY what is written in the talent description.

I’m fed up with the top 1% player minority complaining the game is too easy because such and such talent/blessing/weapon is too strong. Just don’t play with it and let the other 99% have fun.

Regards,
Francis

If golden toughness makes the game too easy for you in your current level, play harder difficulty?

Isn’t it strange that players below level 100 are playing on Auric and that they even have Havoc Rank 40?

99% of players are not playing at the appropriate level, and unless they use meta builds, they can’t even fight properly.

Auric’s highest difficulty should be a challenge for experienced players. If beginners and intermediate players can clear it just by using meta builds, then what’s the point of having a high difficulty level?

havoc was born from a completely broken game balance. but look at the current state of Havoc - most players are trapped in the meta, forced to use the same template builds.

difficulty should be balanced based purely on player skill.

1 Like

If you play safe, stick with the team, revive someone as fast as possible when they are downed, you can clear with the bubble and gold toughness meta. And I don’t see nothing wrong with it. It still needs a lot of patient, teamwork , and tries.

As a vet, I don’t run shout and I don’t have a problem. And there are very very few people play out of meta in Havoc and that’s normal because there are not a lot of people who can.

What’s the point of nerfing or changing it? Currently in Asia server, it’s so difficult to find a team. I don’t care if they are not at the havoc level. I just want to start the game. And every time it’s not boring, it’s always challenging. These ppl talk like going meta builds and you get a free win. That’s ridiculous. People drop like flies. I had a game when I revived people 20 times. So let them play jeez.

1 Like

I think it just not regenerating is fair. If you lose it, you can regenerate only back up to your regular toughness. Could increase base duration over toughness lasts for, and/or the amount. Maybe when the ability procs it sets base toughness to max, and then provides the value of over toughness. Probably need to adjust cool down values.

The whole game needs a massive balance pass so it would depend on a few other things but not regenerating to it, assuming you had it to begin with makes sense to me.

2 Likes

there are some cases where that still damages you through the overshield. It’s a glitch, but it can happen.

I actually kind of liked the idea of overtoughness being simply temporary max toughness increase. I think the current behavior is actually quite unintuitive. Remember trying VoC for the first time? Did you really think it would work this way after reading the ability description?

I would also look at the problem from the other side. If the golden toughness is so necessary, perhaps the effects that bleed through to health are too frequent or punishing, e.g. corruption. Definitely something to consider.

2 Likes

I think your single bullet point is the best simple solution that I have seen. That said i want to spitball a different approach

What if toughness was segmented like HP is currently? Additionally, attacks could only remove up to a single segment of golden toughness in one instance, however, once removed, golden toughness segments are gone. This way you could more finely tuned the number of “free hits” granted by golden toughness abilities.

I presume that this would reduce the utility of golden toughness for those who habitually take easily avoided damage, while preserving its utility as a defence again run ending catastrophes. Further, the granularity of this approach could enable more sources to provide golden toughness in smaller increments, thereby diluting the ubiquity of the current sources.

2 Likes

I’ve said in the past maybe just reduce the duration to 10s (Vet’s VoC) and stay there for a month to see how it plays; err on the side of caution.
FS is notorious for overbuffing and overnerfing, and the penduium swings make me dizzy. If it’s gutted it will likely stay gutted for 6 months and that’s not fun either, being OP as it currently is isn’t super fun either ofc.

4 Likes

In general, Overtoughness has one terrible balancing issue that is present no matter which class or build you play as, I’ll refer to it as core issue. But in the scope of the overall meta, there is another issue of the same proportions that is fortunately specific to Veteran and Zealot classes.

The core issue is that the game counts Overtoughness as a separate Toughness bar on top of our standard Toughness. I’m not sure why it’s implemented like that as it doesn’t make much sense, but this is the core property which lets Overtoughness allow you to tank hits that are designed to break through it.
Sniper shots, Poxburster explosions and overhead strikes are all designed to ignore Toughness. They have incredibly high Toughness damage modifier, so high that without Overtoughness it is impossible for them not to break all your Toughness - for example, in case of Sniper shots it is 10x. On top of that, all those attacks have a special tag which causes them to deal full damage if they broke through your Toughness - and since they always do by design, Toughness is rendered irrelevant against them.
However, since Overtoughness is interpreted as a separate Toughness meter protecting our normal Toughness, those attacks break through the entire Overtoughness (as intended) and then deal all of their damage to… Toughness, instead of Health. Because that’s the second layer after Overtoughness, which normally would always be Health.
For that reason, even if you have as little as 1 point of Overtoughness it’s already enough to block the damage from the most devastating attacks in the entire game, ones specifically designed to ignore Toughness.

That is obviously not okay and should be gone. It doesn’t even feel like a balance problem as much as a programming oversight.

The secondary, class-specific problem is the Toughness Damage Reduction. Both Zealot and Veteran can have an almost constant uptime for 50% Toughness Damage Reduction that applies to Overtoughness as well. And while Zealot will have this 50% TDR uptime regardless of Overtoughness, in case of Veteran it is specifically enabled by it - through the Iron Will talent.
The Iron Will talent on Veteran grants him 50% TDR when he’s above 75% Toughness. It can have good value, if you’re able to keep your Toughness up consistently. The talent is balanced only thanks to the somewhat limited margin of error on TDR (25% of your bar - even extended to ~50% - still isn’t that much on higher difficulties, especially with recent buffs to Gunners), but Overtoughness breaks this interaction as you count as having 100% Toughness so long as you have it - so its not just the 25% of your bar that benefits from 50% TDR, it’s the Overtoughness as well. That usually results in ~100 Toughness margin for Iron Will (so effectively ~200), and that’s on top the ability to instantly replenish all of it with Voice of Command and/or Infiltrate. It allows way too much leeway in tanking all kinds of damage, especially things like Pox Gas.

Voice of Command rant

Add 5-10s cooldown Voice of Command spam to the above and you get a recipe for Golden Crutch. Even if it had 45s cooldown with no possible reductions it’d still be too good thanks to the two properties I mentioned.

But the cooldown for a good player on Aurics is usually less than 10s in a tense combat situation. For an ability that would be overpowered if it was on 30-45s cooldown. It’s a joke.

There are many avenues possible to make Overtoughness work. However,both of the issues I mentioned need to be gone at once in order for it to be balanced, and that’s on top of addressing the VoC-specific ridiculous cooldown.

2 Likes

Indeed

I feel not allowing the golden toughness to regen would result in a noticeable decrease in one’s ability to continually tank these attacks, and in general would result in it being a nice ‘safety net’ that will always only prevent one of these attacks from going through, but never more than that like it’s current implementation. Lets it be a nice panic button to try and save your team from an arrant pox spawn, but won’t save you against the constant deluge that tends to spawn on these higher difficulties unless the remaining ones are dealt with correctly. Could be wrong/further ideation could be needed, but like above I said that point already, and feel this would still be a good ‘starting point’ that wouldn’t immediately brick mainly chorus (as like gpkgpk brought up, I’d rather the abilities not be immediately essentially removed from the game through overnerfing and thusly be that way for months, points at ogryn, weeps for ogryn).

1 Like

My only ‘issue’ with that idea is that’s the buff timer of Chorus. Granted, Chorus has a longer CD and does their pulses so it technicalllly lasts longer, but the main ‘buffs’ still only last for the zealot 10 seconds, and the full effect only like 11-12 ish for the rest of the team, so while I think that would absolutely help, I don’t think that would move the needle hardly at all.

I would prefer they don’t nuke the abilities though, I would very much like to not lose like, half if not more of my veteran builds and a third of my zealot ones. Would very much prefer more incremental reductions until it feels ‘strong but alright’ verses ‘op and now it’s unplayable, there goes another chunk of the community…’