Elite resistance. Rend effect. Random thoughts about balance

[weeping.moon]

So i played a few runs online and a few in solo mod. No proper a/b tests, so some subjective feels and observations.

1. The biggest problem is that there is almost no difference on this new condition for weapons that can easily apply rend on shots/hits. 2 psykers with trauma staves (rending shockwave) + 2 vets with bolters (shatterng impact) can rush through this condition like a knife through butter.
   However Plasma sucks on this condition even more, cause you can’t just dumpmag and apply brittleness on a several enemies as fast as with bolter. Pinning fire (OP itself) + Shattering impact comnbo on a high fire rate weapon like bolter is just too much.

To compete with bolter in that case Plasmagun needs some aoe blow (maybe with some dot effect even) on charged shots.

• Overall i think one of this weapons should be moved a bit towards “a versatile tool, with some stagger/crowd control and some armor damage” (prob bolter), and another one in reverse - “not so versatile, higher damage, not so good at stagger/control” (prob plasma cause slow+vent mechanic).

2. Same for melee, almost no difference for Caxe with Thunderous, i guess maybe no difference with Headtaker instead of Thunderous too. Atleast it was completely fine on zealot, just as zealot overall, his CTW rend-alike feature is a strong thing for such condition. Chain weapon probably suck, have not tried it on this condition.

Chain weapon - buff damage or/and cleave (especially for light attacks). Evi lights should not be some club attacks, we have hammers and crusher for that, and we already have stagger on shred attacks anyway. Give chain weapon some rend/brittleness blessings, like some weaker (maybe) variant of can opener, makes sense that special shredd attacks can damage armor.

3. Another example with rend on rippergun. If you apply can opener, than there is almost no difference for armored enemies on this new condition, however if you are in a gunfight like with shotgunners and gunners, oh boy they can eat a stupid ammount of rippergun bullets. Ogryn feels odd even more. Same with his melee, amount of hits regular humans can take is comical.
   Another thing - there is a paradoxical situation when non-armored enemies like bulwarks and reapers are waaay more tankier than armored, cause of rend doesn’t effect them (most part of their hitboxes)

I’ve got a feeling that Haymaker blessing equivalent should be ogryn class, yes class not subclass, passive feat, some weapon balance/attack speed rescales will be needed prob. Maybe even some decent chance to instakill human-sized enemies on heavies, without chaining hits

It will put all his melee weapon in line for how abhuman brute feels to play, there is still will be a difference:

• shield for tank/support/control, maybe some blessings that reduce damage from the sides/back
• clubs/Pmauls - same situation as with bolter/plasma, one should be more versatile, another one should be more specialized.
• knives - mobilty, anti non-armored, give some bleed blessings to ogryn knives
  

Make ogryn attacks bit slower but deadlier, give him this thing as another one passive talent, to compensate slow AS, so he can pull his ass from being swarmed.

4. Psyker’s BB needs some damage scaling mechanic if you gonna release more conditions with tougher enemies. I’m ok not to oneshot specials with BB even, let’s pretend they were buffed by Nurgle, but regular elites like shotgunners and gunners should take 1 BB. Or give it passive DOT effect (without feats) that scales with enemy HP, like critical nosebleed after brain adamage lel, or maybe change BB so it’s apply stun/suppresion effect after the headpop. Such problem with BB already was on release, you forget about damage scaling again?

DebatableI take - since attachments system was scraped, some blessings should have cons or be tuned down a bit. Like Shattering impact should increase spread/reduce rate of fire/effective range/reload time etc. Probably all rending blessings, both melee and range should have some cons, so you choose your specialization - do you want to go anti-armor or not.

In the end while different conditions that force you to switch your build for an anit-something isn’t a bad thing, it supposed that people have either the same weapon in different variations or planty tools for different goals, so remove locks then, ok?

[fbolduc]

@weeping.moon

Pinning fire (OP itself) + Shattering impact comnbo on a high fire rate weapon like bolter is just too much.

I disagree on both count.

Such a Boltgun is a very dangerous weapon; both for you and your foes. You are most vulnerable as you recharge it. And due to its poor clip size, and agonizingly long reload time, you have to be patient and pick your targets with care.

Obviously, you will not be shooting at light targets in order to conserve ammunition. And even if you empty all your clips on them, it will not kill a Daemon Host, a Plague Ogryns nor a Chaos Spawns. But yes, everything else will die. Though only one at a time.

So, in rebuttal, I postulate instead that the “Pinning Fire” and “Shattering Impact” blessings do not change the outcome of any fight. They merely help with ammo conservation by punching through heavily armored foes with fewer rounds.

Finally, I must admit that I am biased. I’ve been using that Boltgun for hundreds of hours, and it makes Zealot so much more fun to play. I can fearlessly vary the melee weapon I use, knowing that my trusty Botgun is always there to save me from a desperate situation.

[weeping.moon]

@fbolduc

They merely help with ammo conservat

It feels merely in solo target comparison, like with blessings ~1/3 mag for crusher and with blessings ~1/2 mag on crusher. Makes a decent difference in case of tight blobs - with blessings it’s enough damage to kill 7-6 scab ragers, without blessings ~4-3 ragers. In a natural gameplay, not in psykanium you can kill blob of 6-5 ragers easely.

But the main thing is that Shattering Impact applies not rend, but brittleness, which means every target is under debuff for the whole team. So even if you spray at elite blob without some proper killings it brings a lot on the table already, especially in the Elite resistance condition - damage, stagger, rend debuff. This new condition just illustrates how rend debuff is strong, especially when you can apply it so fast.

@fbolduc

Obviously, you will not be shooting at light targets in order to conserve ammunition

Sometimes you can yolo push for the whole run, depending on spawns, the more specials/elites the more easy it to do. So on STG it’s possible not to care about ammo much.

@fbolduc

And even if you empty all your clips on them, it will not kill a Daemon Host, a Plague Ogryns nor a Chaos Spawns

Well thanks the emprah, vet already can kill nurgle beast with dumping just 1 mag in a weakspot.

[fbolduc]

@weeping.moon

But the main thing is that Shattering Impact applies not rend, but brittleness, which means every target is under debuff for the whole team.

Don’t you think it makes sense for a mass-reactive Botgun shell not just to puncture, but also blow the armor apart?

[weeping.moon]

That’s an ideal state when lore meets balance. But zealot ultimate for example reducing enemy armor, doesn’t make any sens from the lore perspective, but it works good. New condition just makes it clear, why such combo blessing is overtuned, or maybe brittleness itself, it supposed for ER to be more slow paced mode as they said, but in reality it’s not (with proper tools). In addition - best anti armor niche should be for plasma gun, not saying bolter should be useless against armor.

[Flawless]

@weeping.moon

Probably all rending blessings, both melee and range should have some cons, so you choose your specialization - do you want to go anti-armor or not.

Rending blessings already have a con.
They take a blessing slot and do not boost damage against some enemies.