In short, the combination of both racial Power vs. Properties on Charms wasn’t intended in the beginning, as FS has tried to keep universally applicable bonuses (at least on Power) pretty much unavailable. So they blocked it from being rolled again in one update, with the consequences as stated, then reinstated it again in the next one exactly because of those problems.
Now that’s something I agree with wholeheartedly. There are a lot of Properties and Traits that aren’t used at all and others that are used to the exclusion of everything else. And the crafting systems is pretty much horrible (horribly time-consuming and frustrating, to be precise). But unless it’s accompanied by rework of the whole system, at least on the Crafting and rerolling side, just removing attributes from play won’t go over well. I think the Traits and Properties can be tweaked or changed to balance them, in many cases even with only tweaking the numbers.
Interesting about the Charm thing. Well, at least they have experience with that and they know kinda what not to do, as a starting point.
And honestly, I’m perfectly okay with removing the health property and curse resistance because they should be accompanied by a large-scale crafting rework. That’s more needed and they already have started the framework to begin along that path with the Weaves’ crafting system.
I think if they started out by just reworking crafting and seeing what options players all gravitate towards when they can specifically pick out traits and properties, we could analyze pick rates and crunch numbers about what’s bad and what’s good. From there, they can evaluate what things need to be buffed, nerfed, or just removed. It makes things a lot easier to change in the future.
I don’t think it’s possible to convince me that Curse Resistance is even a good mechanic in the first place. It just serves as a wall that punishes new players that have no idea what the hell it means. It’s basically a compulsory pick unless you’re a great player who is confident in their ability and internet connection that they will never get hit. I hate it and I hate explaining it to friends that are just picking up the game. The sooner it goes in the garbage can, the better, as far as I’m concerned. +20% health is much the same, except it’s not as hard to understand as curse resistance.
Well there is the case of for example Heroic Intervention which sounds really cool (and yet is pretty much useless) or Off Balance which I don’t even know if works, and then several more traits which are substantially more useful then others.
I can’t help but to compare it with V1, where you had various different builds for pot-share, heal-share, grenadiers, luck-farm… all of which had their place and purpose. It was really handy to have all of these different builds spread throughout your party, every player fufilling a different role.
Also, I want my Rainbow Fish back.
Didn’t read the whole thread but to the op, newer players don’t necessarily need to play the highest difficulty, veteran, which is likely a cakewalk after the first few levels, gives the same exp and item power gear as legend, the only difference is the quality of gear which doesn’t really matter because anything that isn’t red won’t be used once you’re level capped, therefore, them needing the additional health and curse resistance isn’t true.
gee thanks for not reading the post, i guess i’ll just not read your comment and respond to it anyway lol.
Curse Resistance is crap and it’s boring. It’s annoying to have 40% health when you’re new and you see better players dancing around everyone with more than double your effective health from curse resistance and +20% health. It’s dumb. I don’t care if you don’t need it, it’s dumb that it’s a crutch that’s only available to players that have grinded the requisite number of times to make grims irrelevant. It shouldn’t be a thing.
I read the post, just not every comment, I was only replying to your original post. I don’t like how those attributes are just the go-to ones either. New players should be on lower difficulties with other new players until they get good enough gear for higher difficulties in which they can have around the same health as experienced players. Is it intuitive? No, is it balanced? No, but it’s not a huge deal. Curses are conditional, if you meet said condition, it should be stronger than a non-conditional attribute like CDR.
I mean, what if you want to play with your friends instead of “other new players”? What if you don’t feel challenged by lower difficulties because you are familiar with this type of combat from other similar games? There’s not really an answer to those players other than “just grind and get through it”.
The amount of friends that I have who got bored of the game and dropped it before even reaching Champion difficulty is pathetically high. The amount of friends that were turned off by the crafting system and loot progression is pathetically high. These types of turn-offs kill a game’s retention value if something reeks of “oh yeah just grind, the real game starts later” like as if it’s trying to be an MMO.
If you don’t view it as a big deal, that’s fine. That’s your view. I view it as a symptom of the bigger issue that is the the crafting and progression system that just tries to waste players’ time by necessitating loot over mechanical skill in a game that is pretty much universally praised for the fluid combat mechanics and skill cap that it offers.
The issue is that the condition for Curse Resistance is “+20% health if you’re in a quickplay match that is trying to maximize loot”. The condition is almost always met, so it’s dumb. It’s like the talents that give power if someone is holding a Grimoire. They’re dumb and, surprise, they’re also getting removed. Curse Resistance should follow suit and disappear. It’s a bad mechanic at its core, regardless of arguing actual utility.
Also, to your point, the other non-conditional property I’m whining about is “+20% health” which flat-out gives a stronger bonus than all the other conditional “Damage reduction vs X”. Seems kinda inconsistent.
TL;DR - It’s not just about “+20% health” and “+33% curse resistance” being poorly designed because they’re compulsory picks that give huge advantages to players that grinded. They’re just symptoms of the greater issue: crafting and loot progression in this game is bad. A lot of people that I know were completely unconvinced of the game’s value because Vermintide 2 is one of those games where people say “oh yeah the real game starts once you reach level 30 and get decent gear”. This stuff gets in the way of the actual core that is fun to me and people that I know: the satisfying melee combat and narrative where you’re killing rats and vikings during the apocalypse.
From my experience leveling up, many of the people I played with didn’t know many of the book locations, so needing curse resistance wasn’t really a concern for me. At the time I didn’t even know what it was but it certainly would have helped when we did get books. The crafting and progression I didn’t really like but I leveled everyone to 30 pretty early on because I wanted to try everyone out and get the achievement, so that was enough retention for me. All those damage reduction attributes SHOULD be stronger for the reason I gave before, that doesn’t mean they are necessarily going to be designed that way. I do agree, these nuances just give less meaningful options and could use a rework, but the gameplay has always been enough to keep me entertained.
I guess we can just agree to disagree and move on. We’re just talking in circles. We seem to agree that they’re bad but it’s coming down to “it’s not a big deal” versus “it’s a big deal” for something that honestly feels like the measure of work to address the issue is measured in hours and minutes. Your experience is different than mine.
I don’t think it’s a good mechanic that’s worth keeping in the game, and I don’t see much argument to keep it other than “well fatshark has better things to do than fix minor nitpicks about their game”.
Remember when there was no auto guard during revivng fallen heroes? Players from vt 1 knew we can revive safely by guarding ourselves. But most of new players entering vt 2 didn’t know they can revive fallens with guard and there was lots of hot toxic threads on reddit that old players blamed new players for not guarding during revive
I think CDR and 20%HP are same problems. Futhermore, they have more problmes. If you care books, then hp and cdr are must choice for keeping 3t2g safe. Other options that useful but less than them are not selected.
Let them removed and let us take other options their seat
Build diversity is diversity when each one has competivity againsy each other
I always thought it was a bit odd that there were no “gimme” talents from levelling, like every five levels you get an automatic 5% bonus to your health until you get a total of 20% bonus. I dunno if it’d be a good idea, but a lot games let your HP increase as you level up, ya know?
Ultimately even if the crafting system didn’t make this whole thing a huge chore, they have too much to try and work with. They’ve spread themselves too thin - career passives, huge swathes of talents(half of which even in the beta felt like they were running out of ideas just to fill three spots per row), a bunch of vague properties, item traits like free grenades or 30% bonus healing, a bigger number of weapons(some being balanced via hidden bonuses like the +10% crit chance on the handaxe), critical hits throwing a bunch of this out the window, etc.
I brought up something similar when talking about talents in the past, and was met with pushback. I know the thought of removing options is annoying but trimming properties from this equation would make the endeavor of balance and worthwhile choices a little less frustrating for them on the development side. Most of the time I can’t even feel that 5-10% attack speed, and I wouldn’t miss it if it meant just letting us play around with 2-3 traits in each item slot(or fewer for the trinkets and stuff, like the first game. Who knows?).
I’m just over this optimistic idea that all of the systems in place will work when it’s been clear for a very long time that almost all that matters for weapons and properties is getting the most out of a health pool and being able to kill quickly via breakpoints and swift slaying. They’re also just extremely slow to tweak things, which is understandable to a point since as far as i’ve seen they don’t appear to crunch workers - but axe and falchion was free to ruin the game for like six months, builds are pretty narrow for most career/weapon combos, and they already have so much on their plate with the expansion without more systems complicating things. Removing tertiary mechanics that weren’t fun to use may make balancing easier, it may make updated compensatory traits more interesting to play around with, crafting will be less of a chore.
Maybe you lose some of the excitement of finding a red weapon since properties would then be gone, but traits can still be improved or added to make finding one still feel interesting. There are a ton of ways to make this work without cheapening the experience. I just want them to reduce the number of variables, make life simpler.
I personally liked the suggestion from months ago. Not even sure who suggested it. But let CR be something only the grim carrier would take and it workers for the whole party. They kinda suppress the curse with their trinket so everyone else doesn’t need CR.
It’s an interesting idea and would require some party communication to see who has CR equipped. But it would free up 2 dps to take another trait, cooldown reduction or stamina recovery, etc.
That’s a curious idea. It would practically turn the thinking of who wants and doesn’t want to equip CR completely around - right now, it’s usually the toughest Careers who might not want to take it, due to just being able to stand it (for IB, Knight and UC) or actually getting an advantage (for Zealot). But as they’re also usually the designated grim carriers (due to their innate toughness), with the change they’d be the exact ones taking the Property. I think it would also create an interesting choice for Zealot specifically, and possibly rein his strength in slightly.
Hey I’ve got some extra free time while I wait for the background check to pass and my new job to start lol.
I figure there’s at least a non-zero chance that someone at Fatshark will read one of my forum posts while sipping their coffee, think it maybe has a few decent ideas, and then pass ideas on to the dev team because they want to make the game better too. Bogenhafen fixes, Twitch mode improvements, Deed reworks, crafting reworks, and item reworks – I’d love to see any and all of them in the game.
Have I reached the point where I feel like I have a better chance of going to the gas station and buying the winning jackpot lottery ticket? Yes. Am I still going to write rants? Yes, at least until I stop caring about the game and move on to play other games. I think I’m at least minimally interested in Winds of Magic to see what they do with it, even though the only engaging content in the beta for me was the throwing axes.
I kinda like the idea of having one or two guys take Curse Resistance, kinda like heal sharing, but I feel like it only solves this issue for pre-made groups and otherwise quickplay still feels like hell.
There’s plenty of times where I hop in a quickplay match and we’re all playing ranged DPS characters, so none of us would take curse resistance because “that’s not my job”. Or worse, if you had curse resistance on your Ironbreaker bot holding the grim and then a player without curse resistance takes his place and your party feels worse off with a player instead of a bot.
That’s the biggest issue with a lot of these talent and trait ideas that heavily depend on party communication for me. Yeah, it’s probably more optimal to switch around traits to complement playstyles of your party, but that doesn’t happen in a quickplay world.
When I’m playing Ranger Veteran, I may take extra ammo from drops if we’re playing ammo hungry classes, potion drops for Shades in FoW/Twitch, or bomb drops because they’re generally useful for pats/bosses if everyone is able to sustain their own ammo. The talents all build off of my own personal preference, but also what I think is best for the team. The end result is… I take what I think is most generally useful with no foreknowledge of the game I’m hopping into (bomb drops right now, but I’m learning to love ammo drops because that’s getting nerfed).
I think talents and traits that you curate to your team composition like that are interesting, but I dislike them because I’m playing quickplay so I have no idea what I’m jumping in to. Half the time I’ll be half-dead carrying a Grimoire and have less than a quarter of a second to dodge a CW overhead when I hop into a game. The other times, I’ll be dead and waiting for a respawn.
They work in an idealist world where everyone is in a premade lobby and there’s a thriving community where everyone is communicating. That’s the idealist world that they’re building the Winds of Magic expansion based on. That is not the world we live in right now with Vermintide.
It’s even more of a compulsory pick than Curse Resistance because it’s the best by far unless you need block cost reduction and block angle for some specific 90-100% block reduction build. At least Curse Resistance has competition with crit chance, stamina recovery rate, cooldown reduction, and movement speed somewhat.
My suggestion was to get rid of 20% health and lower the damage from enemies by 20% accordingly to compensate for this reduction. This frees you to take +2 stamina, -30% block cost, +30% push/block angle, or one of the other damage reduction properties. This would allow you to pick a build around blocking, pushing, or just having more effective HP than before with damage resistance.
This reduction of health also increases the effective healing from all sources, since you have a lower health cap to fill.
Why do you want +20% health still? It’s boring because everyone picks it unless they’re overconfident in their skill (and internet connection) or they’re new and they don’t have it. It’s a terribly designed mechanic to just give experienced players 20% more effective health, just like Curse Resistance is terrible.
