#BreaktheLocks, again

[Azahros]

@Ryshek

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@ Wumpbugler
I disagree with everything you said, first off this is a Tide (not an aarpg this is unique even is big broo L4D is really different of the baby of FS) game so when the game went out everyone was expecting about something similar or better than VT2.
VT2 isn’t perfect by any mean but they have the best loot box system existing i have ever seen so far. So to get weapon this is quite easy, just smash rat finish mission get your loot box.

The loot box gave 3 random items depending of the quality of the chest.

that you could be improve with dice that was drop by monster and boss, book like grimoire and scripture, there is the quickplay bonus and a random bonus that we call ranald luck (could be call Cegorach luck in darktide).
In the chest you can get different type of rarity item including cosmetics btw

In darktide we get 1 random item depending on the difficulties and that it … the item is bad because of the rating system you are really unlikely to get a good weapon well roll. So that mean we don t speak about 3% of power but like a good 20% or more depending on the luck.
So already the way to get weapon by mission is bad the only use for those weapons is to strip out those blessing and at 90% of time you can’t even because you already have it … you are stuck with bad weapon that you don t even want to sell because of really bad payback you will get from those.

Then you have cratfing, in darktide we miss the salvage option of the weapon to get or component back … In VT2 you could salvage to get your upgrade dust back … in darktide you can only sell your weapon for nothing compare how much you invest in them …

In VT2 you could CRAFT a weapon from scratch in darktide you can t … you need to go to brunt and buy an ridiculous amount of the same weapon until you get the weapon rating you want and well allocate.

In VT2 we have blessing (only one per weapon and we call them trait) this isn’t new !!! and there no damn lock you can replace whenever you want the blessing of your choice

same for the perks XD

So to conclude my point it isn’t the fact i don t have 3% of power creap that make a difference because there is already so much brocken stuff in the game (ogryn bleed ^^, assail, unlimited cleave shotgun, rending etc …) it is the fact i expect to Fatshark to make a game that will be better that what they done before with VT2 and they fail so far even the melle combat of VT2 is better you can’t argue about this btw.
and btw for certain meme build those 3% make the diff you are the kind of poeple using OP stuff and tell other to don t experiment because your stuff exist. I don t like this mentality i think it s a very boring thought. i like compose and made interresting meme build that WORK and compete with META .

@Wumpbugler

If you doing 1-3% less damage than you COULD be truly makes the game unplayable for you then just go install a mod that makes you do 3% more damage.

there is no mod that change the power of your weapon what are you talking about … you clearly are a newcomer in this game type you don t know how mod work and how server work so please inform yourself.

If needed i can bring more screenshot from darktide to make my point

[Ryshek]

@Gigs

Then I realized you guys have been playing without the ability to reroll at all. I felt really bad that such a good game saddled with a system designed by someone that clearly spent too much time designing mobile games targeting people with gambling addictions, then just de-monetized it.

Fairly accurate…

[Wumpbugler]

Let me start by saying you have made an overall good post here, BUT you have COMPLETELY missed the point of this thread.

@Azahros

everyone was expecting about something similar or better than VT2

This IS similar to VT2. FS did NOT want to make the SAME game with a different skin, they wanted it to feel different but in the same genre, and feel they achieved that. FS ran into severe budget issues and had to launch before they were ready, they admitted this. If you played VT2 when it launched you know FULL WELL that is was NO WHERE near the quality it is today. It is not remotely fair to compare VT2 that has had 5 more years of development as an apples to apples comparison to Darktide. Still compare them, still ask for FS to do better with Darktide (they need to), just understand they are not the same.

@Azahros

VT2 isn’t perfect by any mean but they have the best loot box system existing i have ever seen so far. So to get weapon this is quite easy, just smash rat finish mission get your loot box.

At no point did I say the loot acquisition system in Darktide was good, this is a post about #BreakTheLocks, the loot itself and the modification thereof. I have played VT2 (only about 150 hrs, so I’m not a true veteran.) The Emperor’s Favor currently works in a SIMILAR way, doing harder missions does get you better rarity gear, with Auric missions almost guaranteeing you a gold/Transcendant weapon, and yes there are some issues with this. The biggest one is that a 380 white/profane weapon is worth FAR more than a 480 Transcendant weapon, and the game should reflect this better.

@Azahros

So that mean we don t speak about 3% of power but like a good 20% or more depending on the luck.

The 3% is not in the dropped loot, the dropped loot is currently shiet, I’ll admit that, BUT getting at least GOOD loot is very easy using Brunt’s Armory. The 97% power is that ALMOST perfect weapon most veteran players will end up with because getting the 100% what you want is genuinely hard; I honestly prefer this as it helps loot feel more valuable. The vast majority of loot you get in Vermintide is just as useless. You know as well as I do that you just break almost everything down, which brings us to the next point:

@Azahros

you don t even want to sell because of really bad payback you will get from those

This is a great point. While the Emperor’s Gifts RARELY gives me a weapon worth keeping they usually just end up being crating materials (dockets are just a crafting material.) The difference between a blue and orange drop in VT2 feels valuable, not at all in Darktide. This is a problem with the crafting materials system, NOT the drop system. Simply make your gold/Transcendant weapons break down into things like diamantine and plasteel and reduce the mission pickups for them. Boom, your trash gold loot now has more value and feels better to get and breakdown. As for now you get more of the crafting materials for higher level missions because they spawn more crafting loot, but you do so much looting you don’t even pay attention to the plasteel/diamantine number go up most of the time. More discussion here needed, in a different thread.

@Azahros

In VT2 you could CRAFT a weapon from scratch in darktide you can t

Brunt’s. Armory. Upgrade at Hadron. Boom, item crafted #PraiseTheOmnisiah
You can get a decent 360-370 weapon, upgrade it to Transcendant, and use your locks just fine using your crafting materials just like in VT2. NOW, the crafting interface is CLUNKY and DOES need some streamlining, but that doesn’t make it a bad system.

@Azahros

even the melle combat of VT2 is better you can’t argue about this btw.

VT2 was HEAVILY focused on melee combat, the goal of Darktide was to incorporate more ranged combat and they stated this very early on. It’s ok to like VT2 more, Darktide is a SIMILAR but different game and I think the melee combat feels great in the altered combat format in Darktide. Melee classes are my favorite with Ogryn and Zealot being my first two classes to 30. I feel Darktide’s melee system has so much more depth and skill ceiling that VT2 and though I don’t have the words for it I can agree the melee itself doesn’t feel as good as VT2.

@Azahros

and btw for certain meme build those 3% make the diff

It really does not. Put a noob player with impossible to get 500 triple perk triple blessing gear vs an AVERAGE veteran (300+ hrs) with 360 profane gear and the veteran will outperform every time. This is a very skill based game especially in Auric. If you honestly think that you would notice if a random player in one of your lobbies had a cheat installed that made them do 3% more damage you are delusional.

@Azahros

you are the kind of poeple using OP stuff and tell other to don t experiment because your stuff exist

You CLEARLY did not read all my posts before making up the kind of person I am to fit your argument. I literally told people in one of my posts one of my favorite builds it to play Ogryn and just use the Rumbler/Kickback as your melee weapon. I spent ten hours this week trying to get a melee psyker build focused around the Blazing Spirit blessing to work well in Auric missions. The value of class balance and build variety was never an argument in this thread yet here you are arguing about it.

@Azahros

there is no mod that change the power of your weapon what are you talking about … you clearly are a newcomer in this game type you don t know how mod work and how server work so please inform yourself.

To start with you quoted “.” at the start of your post and haven’t edited it out. You have posted a completely off topic post in a specific thread. (Note: I still think your post has value this should have been it’s own thread) You are clearly a newcomer to forums and don’t know how they work and you should inform yourself.

More importantly the point of this comment has flown so far over you head I seem to need to rent an airplane and spell it out in the sky for you. Of COURSE I know this mod doesn’t exist. It SHOULDN’T exist. The point of this is to make a player think about installing that mod, that they DON’T want to. That it actually makes the game less fun, and that that the 3% extra damage of the 95% compared to the super rare 100% gear (that this thread is actually about) has almost no relevance to how you play and experience the game.

You know what loot feel TRULY worthless to me? Loot that I don’t even want on my screen and is more of an annoyance than anything else? ALL and I mean ALL loot when I have “perfect” gear. If I can click four buttons and have ANY piece of gear I want what is even the point of giving me loot?

The #BreakTheLocks argument is about how easy it is to get top tier loot, and it being too hard. It very well may be, and I’ve agreed some changes in this post to make it easier are much needed additions, but #BreakTheLocks is not one of them. If you made the best look obtainable after 2 hours of gameplay that would feel worthless. As for now you can get a 90-95% power weapon fairly easily using Brunt’s Armory and the current crafting system. A better loot reward system and a better streamlined crafting system fixes almost all problems with the locks. The locks allow the 97% gear to be reasonably obtainable while still allowing long term players to have use for loot, instead of it becoming clutter on your screen. The difficulty curve for obtaining this loot rarity is currently off, and frustrating players; this is a problem solvable without breaking the locks.

@Azahros I invite you to share your ideas on how to make the loot drop system more enjoyable in its own thread.

[brosgw]

Not to mention in VT2 it’s a better gameplay loop that incentivizes you to play the game to get better loot. In darktide once you have amassed enough resources the most optimal way is to legit not play the game. Just use the browser plugin to see what is in the armoury and at melks and just buy what you need. Getting good gear becomes divorced from actually playing since Emperor’s gifts are mostly worthless. In VT2 at max level you get 295-300 rated weapons. Almost always 300. In Darktide? 300-380 with variable stats. Way way WAY worse.

[brosgw]

@Wumpbugler let me ask you this. Do you think that ultimately crafting in it’s current form is largely unpopular and/or hindering the enjoyment and success of the game? Do you think that some change need to occur to reduce the RNG in some capacity to make achieving specific weapons better?

[Wumpbugler]

@brosgw

Do you think that ultimately crafting in it’s current form is largely unpopular and/or hindering the enjoyment and success of the game?

I don’t think “largely unpopular” is the right way to describe it. I think most players feel change is needed, but I don’t think the locks are the problem, the changes needed are both simpler and deeper. The frustration with the locks is either one, frivolous complaining about only having a 97-99% power weapon. Or two, and probably more common, frustration with the poor and under developed interface and loot acquisition system. While @Azahros post above was off topic it is certainly the greater issue I feel.

@brosgw

Do you think that some change need to occur to reduce the RNG in some capacity to make achieving specific weapons better?

This would absolutely help the game, I said above the curve of getting different rarities of loot is off, especially at the high tiers. The ability to strip a weapon back down to profane and a the ability to see in shops if you do or don’t have a blessing on a weapon would go a long way, with little developer time, and without lowering the ability to further improve the systems. Loot acquisition and crafting materials need to be changed in some way, but I expect this to be an overhaul on similar scale to the class rework we just got. I think FS needs some quick band-aid fixes to keep the system working well enough to Tide (pun intended) players over until a proper update hits.

[Jacek]

I’ll once again say what I’ve said in the past:

Don’t remove the locks. There is no need to do that. What should be removed are the RNG stats of the weapons.

My proposed change means that a Revolver, Stubber, Voidstrike, whatever you want, will always have the same base stats, with the option to swap out the blessings.

There is no situation where I, as a player, want to have a weapon that has less than 100% or 80% in each value, so the stats serve no function other than to inflate game time, which is pretty moronic for a niche game like Darktide that does not even rotate/have enough offerings in the mTX store fast enough to take advantage.

Remove the RNG stats. Streamline them down to default values, or better yet, remove them. Flesh out the weapons to fill different niches; Revolver is your quickdraw with fanned hammer alt attack for example. You are free to change the blessings every time you want.

Problem solved.

[Azahros]

I disagree again with lot of your argument but atleast that mean we can debate,

First of i understand i am not totally in the subject and i could make a thread on this you are right.
I will make myself a lot more clear for me in Dartide the ALL system of weapon and curio aquisition is BAD.
I will deffinetly compare it to VT2 because we don t talk about the combat mechanics but the weapon acquisition and customisation. I think we can all agree the combat gameplay of darktide is amazing on is own and different from VT2.

So if the gameplay is good what make Darktide worst than VT2 ?
First of i will respond to this because you are right but …

@Wumpbugler

If you played VT2 when it launched you know FULL WELL that is was NO WHERE near the quality it is today. It is not remotely fair to compare VT2 that has had 5 more years of development as an apples to apples comparison to Darktide.

This is not our business as customer we have been promised a lot of features that is still not here at this day. I won’t take the part of FS because like you said the VT2 launch was awful without speaking wind of magic DLC. Then FS earn is redemption of good will all of the quality improvement of VT2.
Now they do same again with Darktide , As customer i had thought they have learn from their mistake … but short term profite is more important to finish the product …
All this to say FS is a company we shouldn t take their side on this … they have decided to launch the premium shop cosmetique before the crafting system fully completed. Just this fact should prove my point, i think.

return to the question,
After had played a lot of both (1000h+ on each) i think i have found a lot of trouble with darktide that VT2 don t have on the weapon acquisition systeme and the crafting systeme.

First of the rating system, i really think FS should get rid of this or change it completely because this isn t good actually. VT2 have something similar but simpler, the rating is call “power” and goes to 300 max . what the difference ? The rating is not point attribuate on different stat this is just raw power of the weapon. That mean on VT2 we just have to craft a 300 power weapon and upgrade it then change blessing and perk as you desire.

@Wumpbugler

Brunt’s. Armory. Upgrade at Hadron. Boom, item crafted #PraiseTheOmnisiah

BRUNT issue:
In Dartide you need to go to brunt to make a weapon. but brunt don t make weapon he salvage them from the battlefield. So the idea is that we don t know the weapon we will get because they are salvage weapon and they don t know as well what they sell. the trouble is that we can buy at level 30 weapon rating between 300-380 (max for darktide). now compare this on VT2 when i craft a weapon at level 35 i can get weapon between 295 - 300 of power. So there is some RNG but as you level up this become more consistent. In Darktide at level 30 we are still completely at mercy of the RNG gods just on rating base, I even didn t start to speak about rating allocation because this is brand new with Dartide and this is the part is awfull.
so first of in each of the stat allocation there is only one cap this the 80 max for each stat. but at my knowledge there isn t a minimum cap in each stat. So you can still get some weapon with some stat ridiculous like 10 % damage.
That mean for litteraly the same action (crafting) in Darktide you are dependent of 2 RNG factor (weapon rating, rating allocution) compare this to the only the 5% power RNG in VT2 .
FIX proposal:
First push the limit rating for level 30 to 350 rating at least, then put a 40% minimal cap in each stat.

BLESSING issue :
In Darktide have 4 tier for most them (exept for unique blessing Tier). That make already one
trouble, why on earth you would like to acquire all T1 T2 blessing ?
most the blessing tier is useless.
and after you have blessing with a monstruous amount of rarity to have for example Power Cycler T4.
Now how we get those blessing ? so to acquire blessing you need to extract them from weapon.
easy you will said …
Not at all since you can buy only blue weapon with cap in their blessing T2 from Brunt …
And Melk shop refresh his very few “high quality” weapon once a day … that make the issue that it is
very unlikely you will found your Blessing in both shop.
The only true way to farm blessing is spam upgrade on blue trash weapon until you get your
blessing to strip out …
FIX:
make machine spirit more alive …
i want to see a systeme that blessing improve with exp and material and not ramdom acquisition …
because it s very time consumming and less lore accurate at my humble opinion.
in 40k you praise your weapon , those are artefact you do maintenance on them and they make you
more accurate in battle and thing like that.

HADRON is shrine issue:

/!\ not finish, i will complete this later
comment this if there is something i should add to the issue mentionned

[BFCInsomnia]

@brosgw

100,000 enemies, kill 3000 elites and 3000

Don’t give them “good” ideas.
I know this is an example but these numbers are way too high. I only recently got 500k kills and 800h playtime.

Reds should be directly earnable and upgrades from your organes.

Melk could give you a weekly spec-ops contract for a token to upgrade your orange items to red, per character.

[Ryshek]

I mean, that’s a different take but it still points out the issue is the Russian nesting doll levels of RNG that are behind the issue at large. Also the entire reason why I’m posting #BreaktheLocks is because the locks go against their stated goal of providing player agency

[brosgw]

Well, you let me know then if you want me to add you to “the memorial”.

[Mezmorki]

The reason why so many are pushing for the locks to go is that ultimately it is the single biggest factor preventing players from being able to openly tinker with item builds. The locks are the glue that stacks multiple layers of RNG together, leading to frustration and an inability to experiment with the weapons and blessings you already have.

Without locks, there is still RNG in getting good base stat items, and a continual hunt for better items can still be had.

Without locks, there is still RNG in earning/finding higher tier blessings you might want to try out.

Without locks, there is still a GRIND for resources to buy more base items, earn items in missions, get melk coins to buy good items/blessings from melk, etc.

WITH the locks in place, players are prevented from engaging fully with the crafting system and from fully utilizing the blessings and weapons they’ve already spent time/resources/effort grinding for and acquiring.

Removing locks would be the single biggest thing that can be done to mitigate the crazy levels of RNG already present throughout the game.

If we want to look beyond that for ways to raise base stats through crafting or directly purchase blessings, that’s totally fine too (and I support that). But the locks have to go first, or an option given to let players “unlock” an item even if just temporarily.

I really hope Fatshark will at least provide a short-term solution for this. It’s been waaay to freaking long.

[zaygr]

The locks force players to restart every time they come into play, and although there is a miniscule amount of progression (due to getting blessings you may not have) it’s still all RNG where you can’t work/progress towards any goal, so starting over just leaves a pretty bitter taste in the mouth, doubly so if it was a 1 in 1000 perfect base that just got bricked.

[Adeon]

Addendum of red items could possibly improve situation if they are hell bent on keeping the locks. I’m thinking that they will be adding red rarity within year.

[Mr.Nixon]

Hope so, maybe then we can actually get some decent content instead of the drip. Or spat in the face by giving xbox players 14k aquilas.

Red items would be a good addition. I just we can finally get some decent ogryn weapons and new maps…. Where are they… its getting a bit stale at this point.

[Shacobi]

Holding out for a modding hero to save us because this is way too long of a wait LOL

[CamClarke]

I don’t think you understand how modding works my dude. Mods only affect things client-side, items and their stats are server-side.

[Shacobi]

A man can dream

[zaygr]

There’s an exception to that: the height changer mod.

[Vodhawak]

@Wumpbugler

These breakpoints do not matter as much as other aspects in the game, and your weapon rolls are not the only way to affect whether or not you can reach them, regarding game balance

If you could reach any breakpoint you desire just through skill tree then there is absolutely no point in having any stats modifiers/perks on a weapon.
The reason why they are there is to keep the weapon balance so you can choose what breakpoint you wish to reach instead of just going to one shot everything regardless of the weapon you have.
Most people are not really aiming for the all 380 all t4 perks and blessings but just to be able to customise their weapons according to their wishes.
Since this is a very repetitive game the possibility to change playstyle evry now and then it’s vital for the survival of the game.