Both solving old problems and refreshing gameplay, all in once! Let's talk about difficulty

So, friends, we can hit enemies through walls since, like, game one… Right, that’s clear, but are we all can agree that this is good and it’s really helping the gameplay process? I think that this is just silly because our weapon would be stuck in walls and constructs (like in real life) if we were in the lobby, but when we are going for some high-level difficulty map we can casually hit everything through walls like if we are some kind of ghosts! Don’t bring your large sword in a tiny corridor - you’ll hit the wall! What I want to suggest is to add collision for weapons in new upcoming difficulty level, force us to be more tactical when it comes to choosing the position for a fight. Give me your thoughts!

What, so just like Dark Souls then?

I mean, I always thought it was weird why we have collision in the Keep, but nowhere in the actual maps.

If they do implement it, however, it should span across all the difficulties, not just a specific one.

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I think we should leave Legend to casuals and give real interesting gameplay for some, who deserves it. Adding collision will highly increase the difficulty of the game, not everyone can handle it. Try hit those two target dummies (in the background behind some crates and bottles) with something like a two-handed sword, it’s not easy to get them both with the same strike.

That’s a pretty poor example though. Those two dummies are left in a tight corridor, which they won’t move out of, and you’re trying to hit not one but BOTH of them with one of the biggest weapons in the game.

In an actual gameplay scenario, you’d either:

A. Lure the enemies out of the corridor, into the open, which is probably the most sensible decision to make.

B. Use smaller weapons, or have one on your team which has specifically taken small weapons to handle enemies in corridors.

C. Kill them one at a time. Nobody is saying you have to hit both of them.

I don’t think adding collision would be as big of a change as you’re making it out to be. Yes, it would make the game a tad bit more difficult, but I doubt it’s something that players down the lower levels wouldn’t be able to handle.

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Yeah, right! That’s exactly what I wanted, more tactical gameplay.

I’m certain the lower levels could benefit from more tactical gameplay as well. Usually, Recruit up through Champion is just about steamrolling the entire map with little thought put into it.

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Sure. Because the one-handed, fast swinging weapons with larger dodge-distances need yet another advantage over the two-handed weapons. Great idea! Other than that, I don’t think we will ever see something like this. The amount of effort to make the this work properly for every map is beyond what FS can handle, disregarding that it would just be for a single difficulty.

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I too feel it’s a bit weird and silly that we can phase our weapons through (most?) walls and that a two-handed sword handles just fine in a narrow corridor, but that’s how it’s been since VT1 so it might be a bit late for changing it.

It would certainly bring more tactics into play and turn things more interesting at least occasionally, but I’m kind of afraid it would make some weapons (most two-handed ones, for example) quite useless in a lot of the maps, which would also indirectly remove them from sensible options in Quickplay. Convocation of Decay, Festering Ground and Blightreaper at least are all maps that involve a lot of maneuvering in relatively tight spaces. All the rest have spots or sequences with that, too. So for weapon collision to be a thing without rendering some weapons useless, those weapons would also need somewhat larger movesets (accessible without having to go through a full combo).

Absolutely terrible suggestion, and allow me to explain why. Two-Handed weapons already suffer from being absolutely terrible when compared to their one-handed counterparts with only a few exceptions, that being the Two-Handed Hammer & Exec Sword, the Great-Axe of the dwarf is almost exclusively used by Slayers.

Adding weapon collisions would already make a bad situation of two-handed weapons even worse in situations like this, and as well add great frustrations for new players, who just want to swing their weapons without much caring about weapon collision. In a world where most one handed weapons reign and two-handed weapons are in a bad spot, this would further add disparity between the two and most likely even just propel one-handed weapon to be the sole choice.

I had a thought.

Perhaps rather than make this a difficulty on it’s own in the standard maps, it could be a mutator as part of a weekly event?

This way, it won’t break already established METAs and (as many in this thread have voiced their worries about) render two-handed weapons useless, but instead be something that’s, you know, just meant for fun.

Well, the problem is, IRL you can adjust your striking pattern to circumstances f.e. go from wide swings to stabs with longsword.
In-gme you’re stuck with certain combos, you can wlk around it by blocking, push-attacking - but it’s still far from full player’s control.
Also remember taht enemies can clip through ech other. So IMO, either we have to reinvent the attack ptterns by giving player more control and we hve to disable enemy stacking, or we leve things as they are - broken but manageable.

And I think FS would have to reinvent the whole 1h vs 2h weapons system - so if you decide to carry 2h weapon, you would also be given 1h weapon - f.e. falchion. The disadvantage? A bit lower dodge range and attack speed due to added weight and bulk of 2h weapon you are carrying along.
Now that would make 2h weapons usable via ability to switch between “tunnel weapon” and standard weapon, that would take just a tiny bit of time, instead of current instant-switch.
Now, shield users would be given an option to just put the shield on their backs for added attack speed/dodge range/dodge count and that’s it - shield weapons would, in general, be as good in tunnels/building as before.
1h weapons - no need to change anything, since they are excellent anyway.

That’s not entirely true. As I’ve found out through waiting in the Keep every now and then, if you do a charged attack, collision won’t apply to it.

So like you said with how you can adjust your strikes IRL, you can also do it in-game, albeit not to the same degree as real life, obviously.

I don’t see how enemy clipping has much to do with terrain collision though.

That’s not entirely true. As I’ve found out through waiting in the Keep every now and then, if you do a charged attack, collision won’t apply to it.

Well, I thought this topic is about generally adding weapon physics resulting in collisions, and not just introducing them here and there but not for charged attacks.

I don’t see how enemy clipping has much to do with terrain collision though.

Full collision system would be PITA, and would render wide swings a LOT less effective, often you wouldn’t even be able to connect with the enemy due to walls/furniture. So enemy body physics would allow FS to balance the whole thing without giving out huge buffs lefgt and right - current weapon attack system is necessary because you’re getting attacked by stacks of rats that aren’t really affected by tight corridors.
Without body physics and with weapon collisions every narrow passage would turn into insta-death-trap for the team, because rats wouldn’t give a damn about it being narrow, while your 2h hammer would be virtually useless.

I interpreted it as applying the collision as seen in the Keep into the maps proper, and collision in the Keep only applies to normal attacks.

Plus, making it so collision doesn’t apply to charged attacks would give you counterplay, and not render two-handed weapons completely useless.

But wouldn’t collision not applying to charged attacks, like it is in the Keep, make it a little bit easier?

You’d still be able to clear hordes despite them clipping in each other, you’d just do it a bit slower as you have to charge up your attacks.

I’m not saying enemy clipping is something that needs to stay in the game, but if collision ever gets implemented, making it not apply to charged attacks should give a bit of leeway.

Y3ah, but I want immersion and this is kind of counterimmersive for wide swings to ignore walls. Also pickaxe users would be in a deep **** since their light attack is the horde-clearer :stuck_out_tongue:
Also I really would love to carry 2 melee weapons , nd BTW people did tht IRL - you had lucerne hmmer in your hands and also carried sheathed longsword at your side, just in case.

Well to dip in no i think this is pretty horrible idea from balance perspective alone. Have fun balancing 2 handers when they are already under-performing in most cases.

Secondly if its difficulty tied thing it makes it even more confusing for people who are new to the game. Currently even tough some of the weapons are under-powered they are still usable in every difficulty. After something like this it would be totally new game at that point.

Finally i just don’t think its something that would make the game more interesting. I honestly just see it more of an frustrating aspect than anything else.

Problem is that few bosses for example couldnt even attack in enclosed spaces. Overall its probably disabled because it was too problematic for players

If you want realism, allow the players Melee swings to hit their allies. That’d be about as much fun as a sandpaper condom.

3 Likes

Features like that won’t work in projects like Vermintide 2.
The collision mechanics, hitboxes, animations and physics are MMORPG tier. Literally just the absolute basics and even on this level the number of glitches and bugs are beyond compare. Not even talking about performance. Implementing something like that in V2 would be like trying mod the shooting mechanics of Arma III into the Fallout 3 engine. It took some heavy workarounds at dodge distance and KI aim to even make melee combat working in the current state of interaction with environment (aka: none).

They obviously started implementing it in the keep but this is a game that was out a year before getting patched with ingame jpgs of loading screens as collectable paintings, no dedicated servers or improvements of the horrible p2p system in sight and no skins or cosmetics besides recolors of the ~10 slightly different models.

So even if there would be a framework that could support such gigantic changes, there would be no chance that such a project could ever be realized in under a century considering that actually different hats and a smoothly working connection system in a coop game are already too much to ask for.

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