I’m sorry, right it’s 20% so 375 eHP which is still close to 100% more than an average Vet or Psyker, and more than an average Zealot’s life pool.
I also forgot that TDR from Tough Skin is applied twice for Toughness making it 36% TDR. Making it way more eToughness than I indicated.
And why wouldn’t you? You don’t need Wound or Stamina curio (see your first point about stamina) and you have more than enough health as is.
Again, why? What other curio would you pick? The health pool is gigantic already, and if your toughness pool is gigantic too the only thing that is a danger to you is fire, which ogryn can deal with pretty well due to the various easy toughness regain methods.
I face-rolled content with Confident Strike on High-Int t5 before Auric was a thing and even made a post about it back then. It’s still doing its job for me allowing me to take active ranged fire and melee hits and not really give a damn about it if there are things to hit.
Maybe it lost a bit of its value due to all previous options now being available all at once, but it’s still damn strong if you need even more regain.
At the moment, I mostly play Damnation quickplay, been trying more Auric lately but don’t have many results to draw from (some wins, some losses). I don’t have Scoreboard installed so I can’t give you any specific numbers, just my own observations. I wouldn’t consider myself an exceptionally skilled player – I can get hit a bit, I tend not to clutch (regardless of build) – so you can make your own judgement with that in mind.
A more utility-esque build than most, but it caters to my tastes. I’ve used the Revolver in this build at times before, so the choice of IAG at the moment is one of preference rather than optimization.
decent horde clear
the stagger from the Crusher makes it reasonably easy to take advantage of Pious Cut-Throat
most elites are a non-issue
Dreg Ragers/Maulers are slow, Crushers are slower, but easily controlled; I might use the special to control them on the first hit, but stacked Hammerblow/heavies tend to keep them under control afterwards
with large packs, I’ll use Immolation Grenades and hold them on top of the fire
most specialists are a non-issue
push attack and heavy attack to the head can one-shot anything bar Trapper and Mutant, although I’ll go to the IAG for most specialists anyway
Mutants are slow; single target combo (push attack → light → heavy may kill them in one combo, but depends on headshots/buffs etc so not extremely reliable)
bosses are okay
single target combo has good headshot damage, I’ll supplement Plague Ogryn/Chaos Spawn damage with Immolation Grenade
for the Beast of Nurgle, IAG does most of the work
Personally, I’m a big fan of Chorus because of its pre-emptive use (elite packs, advancing on ranged groups) and reactive use (fire, bursters, protecting someone who got trapped).
I also play a slight variant of this with Devil’s Claw Mk IV with Shred and Surgical/Hand-Cannon Revolver, but shifting a point into Scourge for the extra crit. I want to play around with Shred/Skullcrusher to see how that fares; I expect it to take a hit in terms of personal damage output, but hope it can be offset by the benefits granted to the team.
Yes Im aware that this bug was in the game at one point. Afaik that has been fixed, but correct me if Im wrong. Still doesnt change the fact that 2-3 shooters or 1-2 gunners can instantly shred all of your toughness.
If it gets one shot anyways, it doesnt really matter.
See above.
Ive seen my fair share of Ogryn without any health curios and those usually die 1-2 hordes into the round. Sure that could also mean that the bad players just tend to run that specific combination, but Ive yet to see meet an Ogryn in pugs that dont play health curios and dont go down after a mixed wave or scab patrol.
Health, see above.
Yeah, back then it had its place, still wasnt BiS tho. You could manage with it just fine and Ive met some players that didnt run it and demolished everything as well. You can still run it but with both heavy talents available now its more overkill than anything and you, and your team at that, would benefit more if you had smth else instead
If theres nothing to hit your confident strike wont change anything of the outcome, whats your point here?
Instead of being dismissive you could try providing a counter point.
For instcance to back by claim, 2 shooters on damnation can delete 160 toughness with maxed out TDR% in 2 salvos. If we consider that on damnation youre met with way more than 2 shooter per encounter, getting blasted by those will instantly cause you to take health damage.
On the same build, 1 gunner removes all your FnP stacks + all your toughness in ~4 sec and in the one sec in took me to despawn him, he took away ~60hp. As you meet multiple of those per pack, it will again shred your whole tougness faster than most people could react to it.
On the same build again, 1 shotgunner will leave you with 1 toughness in 2 shots, 1 shot on your health will do 60-70 dmg with 9 FnP stacks. As we will encounter multiple of those again, you will lose all your toughness in ~2-3 seconds.
If we look at all of those values, the innate dr, be that 20% or 36%, would at most buy you a second at best.
If youre getting swarmed/overrun that one second wouldnt matter and if that is not the case, you have the problem of losing more than ~1/3rd of your toughness anyways, meaning without that innate dr you would lose ~1/2 instead. Doesnt matter much in that case, cause it will be 100% after the next hit regardless.
Heres the build I tested with in the Meat Grinder, so anyone can feel free to replicate. Headsup, I couldnt test with 3x17%, instead I had to settle with 1x17, 2x16. Tho I doubt that would make a significant difference.
Edit: I forgot to add the 20% gunner dr
So tell me again how op the ogryn is, with backed data and metrics please. After all it could be that im just getting this wrong or missing smth, noones perfect after all, so I would really like to learn from this
Dude don’t say what people can bring into t5 auric
I disagree with Nish and ran a few games taking all toughness nodes and curios just to see what he’s on about. The build was boring but it had 247 toughness. And i ran it in t5 auric maelstrom.
I’m not in the mood to go white room test Ogryn. I play what I wrote, both with Bully and Gunlugger. I wouldn’t even propose I’m anywhere close to pro on Ogryn. It works for me being incredibly tanky.
If some of the pro Ogryns that I see on maelstrom sometimes just rush Gunner groups do know something better I take their word for it, but I’m not buying that Ogryn isn’t incredibly tanky and the bugged Thick Skin is something that is required to make Ogryn viable or even balanced.
I run Ogryn with ~200 toughness with 3xTougness curio + 2 perks, I don’t go all out to get all the toughness nodes. Have seen people with 260 before.
If you’ve seen some info suggesting it’s been fixed please do send it this way. Considering the mechanical nature of the bug (basically HP specific DR doesn’t exist, so HP DR has always equated to general DR) I’d assumed it was still present.
We’re talking about the comparative strength of Ogryn right? Nobody except Vet with a lot of confirmed kill stacked can afford to stand in the open and get shot for more than a few seconds. That can’t really be considered an Ogryn specific weakness, however his extra DR, etoughness, and higher hp does afford him a little more leeway to get out of the way before being flattened. So I don’t think him not being able to raw tank gunner fire means he isn’t very tanky generally, it just means he at least isn’t playing a completely different game to the other classes. He also has insane coherency regen, meaning he can duck behind cover near allies then be back to full toughness in no time. In general I don’t find the idea that Ogryn has any kind of shooter/gunner weakness credible. He has heaps of tools to deal with them, and definitely doesn’t fare worse there than any other class.
Meanwhile in other situations, like soloing a boss, that tankiness is felt to the extreme, as you can often get away with just mashing heavy, barely even dodging or blocking and walk away from that situation with just minor chip. That’s pretty insane tankiness. He doesn’t really need the extra in built DR there, or any melee conflict.
I’m not necessarily saying Ogryn SHOULD have their innate DR taken away, but I’m also not gonna pretend Ogryn isn’t both the easiest and the strongest class currently. They absolutely would get by fine without it.
I diddnt notice that at the point of writing it and Im deeply sorry for that. I really shouldnt comment when Im sleepy
Im not trying to dictate what people play, Ive merely stated my experiences so far. I honestly couldnt care less what kind of build youre running. If youre able to pull your weight and dont grief that is. If youre going down constantly and your build deviates from the ones Ive seen so far the most, the first thing im gonna assume is that its build related. Doesnt have to be, but its possible. You can run all greys and no curios if you want, as long as youre not being a burden
I did some looking into it again and it seemes Ive been mistaken. I thought I saw someone mention it being fixed prior to patch 13, but apparently it was only aknowledged back then, I was unable to find solid proof that it was actually fixed, my bad.
That is true and I wasnt trying ti imply that you should do that at any point. The increased size of the Ogryn just doesnt allow him to utilize ~98% of the stuff that is standing around to be uesed as cover. Most of the time youre either forced to backtrack behind a corner, which while not bad or wrong, isnt possible all the time. Hence youre kinda forced to take the shots. If you have no riff-raff close by to replenish with heavies, youre gonna take health damage almost immediately.
Im not trying to refute that Ogryn is the tankiest class currently and I also agree that is the case. I also agree that its the easiest and strongest class for the general user. There will always be stronger classes in the hands of pros, but that doesnt apply to the majority.
What I dont agree on is that the state of the current Ogryn balance stems from his still intact passives that other classes dont have. What makes the Ogryn so strong as he is rn are some of his pretty strong weapons and some of his skill tree talents that work in tandem to push him over the edge. The weapons are currently so strong that youre not really forced to pick damage talents if you wanna output huge numbers.
But we also should keep in mind that the Ogryn was designed to be the tanky support class he is and all those passives stem from that. He was designed with the core identity to be the teams anchor that they can lean against when things get sketchy and hes finally able to perform that role, although a bit too good, if you ask me.
I think it would be a big mistake to strip those from the Ogryn to get him more in line with other classes as that would be harming his gameplay identity that is so distinct from the other classes. The right move imo would be to give other classes passives again to be more in line with Ogryn. Also rebalance some of his stuff again and tune down some numbers if that is still required at that point
In general I agree that I’d rather see other classes gain passives than take passives away from Ogryn. More interactions to build around and add flavour is generally preferable.
If anything is overbearing survivability wise in Ogryn kit I’d be targeting the two toughness on heavy attack talents that combined feel like they generate as much toughness as every other class combined. Those are pretty dopey, I don’t think the in built DR is a big factor by comparison. I think bleed, dominate, and PBB fire nerfs were very warranted and maybe that’s enough for now regardless in terms of their core kit.
