A Detailed Breakdown On Why The Huntsman's Is Disappointing On Veteran and is Outcompeted In Every Use Case By Other Weapons

Warhammer 40,000: Darktide General Discussion
1

Updated video is too long to post here see on Reddit:

Introduction

Apparently my last post was not detailed enough. So allow me to break down exactly how the huntsman is definitively and indisputably worse in every possible use case compared to existing weapons. To be clear this is me saying that the Huntsman is like a B tier weapon, it is fine, however it just doesn’t have any case where it is actually good to use. This is primarily down to four things that should be proven through this post.

1: Its lack of ammo efficiency.
2: It having too wide of a spread to be efficient at mid-long ranges.
3: It having too narrow of a spread to be useful at close ranges.
4: Its damage not being much better then the MK IX (And its effective DPS being lower)

Edit:

I have since done these tests with manstopper on the Mk IX, I ran the same blessings on both just for direct comparison reasons. However I think this seriously undersells the Mk IX on the close range tests. After testing it with Manstopper the Mk IX absolutely demolishes the close range tests and still does the same in the shooting gallery test (unsurprisingly). I will update the TLDR video at the bottom once I am done running more tests.

Weapons Specialist Build Testing

Probably the best way to use the gun is on a weapons specialist build using flachete and scatter shot. First the tests. I ran Auric Large hoard, Havoc 40 Ragers and Bruisers, and Crushers and Maulers. Each with the competing weapons specialists weapon choices and I added the marksman focus helbore in as a comparison.

(Hoard tests are in Auric as these weapons have a hard time on this test in havoc 40)

Weapon Specialist Hoard Test MK IX: 8.63

Weapon Specialist Hoard Test Huntsman: 8.77

(Of note is how far away I need to be with the huntsman to get a comparable time. Being closer significantly lowers its DPS into hoards)

Weapons Specialist Hoard Test Plasma: 9.77 (Does much better in havoc 40 compared to others)

Marksman’s Focus Helbore (Why Not): 12.13

The hoard tests are fairly comparable, with better luck on enemy positioning both could go lower but I think these are about as good as you could expect to get in actual games.

(Ragers and Bruisers Tests are on Havoc 40)

Weapons Specialist Ragers And Bruisers Test MK IX: 6.13

Weapons Specialist Ragers And Bruisers Test Huntsman: 7.00 (This is by far my best time with my previous best being 9.22 mostly just luck here)

Weapons Specialist Ragers And Bruisers Test Plasma: 7.19

Marksman Focus Ragers And Bruisers Test Helbore: 7.71

Crushers and Maulers:

I ran Crusher and Mauler tests and I probably don’t even need to explain that its not good for the shotguns to the point that I didn’t even test the MK IX and the huntsman is barely able to get through them after around two minutes. Just melee the crushers the huntsman is not good into them. I even tried full bore and + carapace damage and it is still very bad into crushers on havoc 40.

Note:

I very much tried to steel man this as much as possible. I tried with the huntsman many more times then the other guns and picked the best runs. If you can do better with it show me.

Weapons Specialist Conclusions

From my testing as a Weapons Specialist gun it is just worse then the MK IX shotgun. It has worse DPS into every group except crushers but the crusher times are so much worse then just using the power sword that you are just completely wasting your time trying to shoot them. The MK IX has a better sprint speed, faster reload, has more ammo, and it shoots faster.

Just use the MK IX or Plasma as both are clearly better options for this sort of build.

Executioner’s Stance Marksman Focus Build

This is the build I believe the gun was designed for. I could be wrong but the whole identity of the gun is being a huntsman, shooting at longer ranges for precision kills. In this role as the following tests show the helbore is much better. I didnt repeat the prior tests with marksman focus and executioner stance because I think it is pretty obvious that the Huntsman will not suddenly over take the helbore.

However to test its effectiveness I setup a pretty simply shooting gallery that should show how capable it is at this, this is what I would consider “middle” range with a lineup of enemies you could reasonably expect a veteran to clear in any auric or havoc game.

Marksman Executioner Shooting Gallery Test Huntsman: 30.06

Marksman Executioner Shooting Gallery Test MK IX: 25.18

Marksman Executioner Shooting Gallery Test Helbore: 8.26

(Probably more like 6 but the start was super slow because it was the first one I did I wasn’t warmed up and I don’t feel like re setting up it just to demolish the other gun’s times even harder)

Executioner’s Stance Marksman Focus Build Conclusion

I am actually shocked that the MK IX is better in this test. When I started this I expected the Huntsman to be marginally better not notably worse at mid range. Turns out the huntsman is even worse then I initially thought, just use the MK IX. (This is a MK IX with 50% stability intentionally under leveled because I like having a wider spread when I run it).

What about long range?

If you somehow still think the huntsman is anything beyond mid at this point and you read this entire post.

Please tell me a build where the huntsman is the best weapon and the build wouldn’t objectively be better by swapping it for something else. I do think it is fun I just do not see any reason to actually use it currently. If you just want to use it for fun then this is not me trying to say you cant use it, I am just saying it could use some buffs/changes to make it actually useful/distinct.

Or dispute anything I said in this post.

And finally to repeat my suggestions to make the gun better and distinct from the MK IX:

  • Make it a slug shooting shotgun as its standard round, Basically same as the MK VII slug but with more damage and cleave (It should keep full bore as a blessing)
  • Give it a special attack where it loads buckshot with a very wide spread (Being the inverse of the combat shotgun is a fun idea and matches the concept of the gun).
  • Higher carapace damage (One shot maulers and plasma gunners to the head at least with a good build not as base damage).
  • Ammo reserve up to at least 90.
  • Magazine up to 8.

And no I do not just want the gun to be buffed to the point it is OP

Just to get ahead of some people’s assumptions, no I don’t just want it to be better then the plasma or something. I just want it to be distinct from the MK IX and be a bit better so I have a real reason to use it. Currently it just feels like the MK IX but worse in literally every way, it feels far too similar currently.

I believe my suggested changes reinforce its unique identity while making it more viable without it becoming too powerful.

TLDR

  • The huntsman is worse then the MK IX combat shotgun as a shotgun due to numerous factors
    • Less Ammo
    • Too tight of a spread to be good at close range (while not being tight enough to be good at long range)
    • Longer Reload
    • Slower Fire Rate
    • Higher damage doesn’t matter as it just over kills enemies providing no real bonus
    • Somehow the MK IX is actually better at mid range DPS.
  • The huntsman is worse as a precision elite removal tool then the Helbore due to many factors
    • Literally less than 1/10th the ammo
    • No significant break point changes (And the ones it does meet that the Helbore doesn’t it looses beyond point blank range)
    • Much worse into carapace
    • Cant be used at medium-long range effectively
    • Much slower fire rate
  • The Plasma has basically all the same characteristics but is just better.
    • Basically same fire rate
    • Basically same damage
    • Way less cleave
    • Worse into Carapace
    • Less ammo

While it has comparable times in tests its much worse ammo economy is a very large factor here. Also the Plasma’s much better cleave means that in actual games its doing notably more through a game.

Every role the huntsman could possibly fill there is another weapon that fills that role better.

Yes the Huntsman is a bit more agile then the plasma but I dont think that really makes up for its short comings. The Huntsman needs much more cleave and more ammo to compete seriously.

The MK IX is clearly the better shotgun on Zealot and I don’t know why you would use the Huntsman on Psyker. Its probably good on Hive Scum I haven’t tested.

I just want the Huntsman to be more distinct from the MK IX and be a bit better

Finally: The MK IX is just flat-out better in every way as proven by the above tests, just use the MK IX if you like the Huntsman it is a direct upgrade.

To the people on my last post (and also reddit now lol):

they-hated-JDLS-because-he-told-them-the-truth
they-hated-JDLS-because-he-told-them-the-truth800×800 103 KB

2

ever hear the phrase, “given the means, players will optimize the fun out of a game”?

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Looks its not my fault fatshark made the Huntsman literally just the MK IX but worse in every way.

4

The only thing missing from your analysis would be the Double Barrel. I conceptualize the gun as between that and the combat shotguns. I think in that case, the weapon is missing a bit of cleave to really be competitive. I don’t think giving it manstopper would be busted if that blessing is going to exist in the game or some other version of a ranged cleave boosting blessing (or instead of +infinite cleave like +200% cleave).

OTOH I think high cleave on shotguns is kind of dumb and would prefer a different direction entirely. There are three open blessing slots for the Huntsman and the utility blessings are Toughness regen ones and terrifying barrage. It has high damage and can oneshot most things without two damage blessings (more easily on Vet ofc), maybe Hit & Run can be added. Run & Gun for tighter spread if wanted also an option.

Also while typing this, I noticed the flavor text for the weapon says it’s a precursor to the MkIX shotgun. Maybe that’s why it’s not as good as it XD

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I would test it but I don’t have max masteries on the double barrel and just didn’t feel like doing it. This is mostly a vet comparison anyways and I haven’t seen a single person run double barrel on vet ever lol.

Honestly I just want them to make it a slug shooter because that would make it actually distinct from the MK IX but as it is…

Yeah no wonder the MK IX replaced it lol.

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what does comparing manstopper and explosive plasma shots to anything do, kinda funny you get almost the same result to that nonsense, makes me do the agent k reading the newspaper meme. its also a terrible candidate for marksman’s focus with like 1.75 crit weakspot or whatever dismal accatran shared value it is. this is more of an example of how not to play weapons designed around the pop and swap gameplay and throwing them into extended fire examples. like yes, that is not a great example of what the weapon does well. vet should focus on minimizing reload as much as possible for these sorts of weapons by using weapon specialist’s always prepared to give you 1 ammo back. but mostly melee and following damage buffs running exe for no slowdown you can basically always swap to this gun and kill something with a WS crit besides crusher. if I were going through the shotguns myself genuinely there is basically nothing accatran shotgun can do at auric level zarona doesn’t do 1000% better due to having all the same breakpoints and better thanks to unyielding spike (x21 pellets on ADS). the same loadouts I run with Mk9 shotgun can struggle to kill Reapers in 3 shots at a fairly close distance. the Mk9’s great damage is completely evaporated over distance.

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Thats the build people run with it for some reason.

I used them within the time period of weapons specialist in both builds. Either way plasma and Mk IX is just doing better in general regardless of how you use them.

You can also do that with the Mk IX but more, and also use it as a mobility tool to run faster if you are using the power sword.

These are havoc tests except the hoard and the hoard doesnt really matter.

I really dont see that. The Mk IX does fine at long range if you aim in and I run a under leveled Mk IX with 50% stability lol.

8

The combat shotguns are better than most people give them credit for. That said, shooting till empty is weird. The Huntsman fires faster after a reload than the other shotguns in hipfire, you have to kind of cancel the reload delay with the combat shotguns by ADSing. I’d like to see a test with a more prolonged engagement where you’re reloading between shots. The Mk IX might still have the edge but the Huntsman feels better in such a scenario.

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That is a edge case scenario considering you want to be using the shotguns on weapons specialist builds and you don’t really want to be shooting prolonged like that with those builds. Plus the Mk IX’s bigger magazine makes it better at actually utilizing the buffs from that sort of build.

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Yeah and like them you’ve got a lot to learn and also need to get good. You can easily kill a bulwark in one hit over their shield on vet with this weapon like the 2 good combat shotguns (not Mk9) and in havoc the Accatran has almost no hope of even 2 shotting reaper. Its basically revolver crossed with shotgun for one shots they are abundant. Bleh I hate reading takes that seem AI generated from people who have already confessed to not even finishing the mastery system up. Like :+1:

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God forbid I dont mastery every gun in the game including the ones I dont care for? Crazy.

Tell me a actual build and testable scenario where the Huntsman’s is notably better then the Mk IX.

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It doesn’t even take longer than like 5 minutes to actually do it and then have some kind of qualified opinion. If you did, you’d probably think the Krourk double barrel is a way better comparison for this even with the descriptor blurb on the Accatran shotgun. But the Huntsman still has even more range than that, since its basically just huge damage at all times with no restrictions. But since its slow, it will be terrible spamming that as your primary weapon. These are pretty basic tenants of the game I’m surprised even need to be worked out. And yeah the Mk9 shotgun is indeed not good over distance, lets try an actual game and not enemies running at you from like 15m away. It has a damage drop off range of 8-14m to Huntsman shotgun’s 20-32, and significant damage drop off to distance + its firing a ton of pellets. This is why like I keep saying, it sucks on the non-crusher ogryns and bosses a lot while the other combat shotguns are actually good at this (and other things and over distance). Please make a clip educating me how the accatran will kill reapers at like 30m without shooting them multiple times where the other shotguns can still one shot them, like I said play the game more. At least do the basic ‘rank up’ for the guns before deciding which ones we need to act on desperately for game balance…like that should be the bare minimum bro.

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The huntsman is fine IMO.
Not every weapon in darktide needs to be the best at something. There is so many weapons that it would simply be an impossible ask, some weapons have to be just mid, and thats not a bad thing.

I haven’t run it in dedicated ranged builds much, so I’m not sure about ammo economy, but I don’t see anything falling appart by giving slightly larger reserve.

I was thinking it would feel a lot better with one more minimum pellet count, but with the weapons stats Im afraid that would be way overcorrecting.

To me the gun only slightly misses the sweetspot, these suggestions are unhinged IMO

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https://www.nexusmods.com/warhammer40kdarktide/mods/395

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The only shotgun that can do that is the Mk VII (Which I generally prefer to run but I think the Mk IX is a closer comparison to the huntsman)

And no the huntsman cant one shot a reaper at 30m and its off by like 30% even with max buffs.

That is a crit headshot with a max ranged damage build with active full bore and death spitter and max focus stacks and exec. If that cant do it then I don’t think the gun can do it. At least not realistically and consistently, and also the Mk IX also kills in two shots there.

Im not going to waste my time leveling up guns I dont want to ever use. I dont really like the double barrel sue me.

Also genuinely stop it with the “Im better then you” stuff its really not helping anyone and is just extremely rude for no good reason.

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To me the gun just doesnt have anything making it really distinct from the combat shotguns and I think a slug shotgun that loads buckshot as a special would be cooler then what it is currently, where it is basically just a combat shotgun mark.

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Likely because Exe Stance MMF shotgun builds have been getting popular lately and people just defaulted to that for a more ranged-focused shotgun build, the recent Vet buffs also mean you can take all the range nodes and still have talents leftover for melee. IMO that only really works with the slug shotty due to it’s ridiculously tight spread and good finesse numbers.

Personally I found the Tag Keystone is the way to go with this weapon if you want to focus on shooting more. For whatever reason I find it diffcult to upkeep MMF stacks.

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Honestly I don’t know why people would run Marksman builds with anything other than the Helbore/infantry lasgun. The ammo efficiency is not there to make them work. And I do quite like the Mk VII (you can find me advocating for it like a year ago even lol).

(Also the Mk VII is way better than the Huntsman’s in Marksman builds so I have no idea how people can make that swap and not immediately notice how much worse it’s performing).

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I’m not gonna lie, I’m mostly just kinda baffled why you’re comparing a pump action shotgun, a high damage close to mid range weapon with good mobility, to the closest thing the game has to a sniper rifle, a very high damage mid to long range weapon with moderate mobility, and a plasma gun, a high damage mid range weapon with high cleave and secondary mechanics that limit the fire rate.

The combat shotgun comparison is valid and makes plenty of sense, but why on earth are you trying to make the huntsman do Plasma or Helbore things?

20

Eh, there’s enough ammo even in H40 if you’re two/three-shotting specials/ranged elites and not mag dumping too hard into everything else. This is of course asumming at least one person on the team isn’t taking ammo.