A straight out copy of diablo 3 monk exploding palm, basically you mark one enemy and turn him into a bomb.
don’t know who it would go to.
WP ? Have it be renamed as Soulfire
Or on WHC with Fiery Guilt (I’m not sure if it’s still the name, though it was also mostly attached to the Inquisitor of Solkan iirc)
If they want to increase the number of skill in each column I wouldn’t do it to all the rows.
The 5 (Health) and the 15 (Power/Stagger) should remain at 3, as they serve to balance the career
And between 10, 20, 25 and 30, the only one that would be able to develop nicely would be 25 and 30
20 and 25 because it’s mostly changing the passives
30 because it change the Active
But even still it would mean:
5*4 per lines. It make 20 single skills
Unless they do the health or Power/Stagger level which are shared so it would be 2 or 3 skill max
I don’t see your point. These two aren’t mutually exclusive. How does this have anything to do with the points I’ve raised? My feelings do not make anything I’ve written invalid.
If you say so.
Let’s ignore the weapons and careers. Deeds are still there. Same goes for the crafting system; both base game and weave, massive discrepancy between weapon performance, difficulty scaling, new player experience/tutorial, useless talents, useless traits and useless properties etc.
I agree, but that’s not what is being disputed here nor have I implied as such.
You forgotten where the first Big Balance Beta came from and how it is basically a carbon copy of a mod?
Noted. I don’t see how the original topic of a 4th talent row was going to discussed within capacity then.
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WPoS was added; that’s 18 new talents with the new passives, ability, the great hammer, and flail with shield. That’s a lot of new stuff and I don’t think it has many major balance issues besides flail and shield (was that nerfed?) I didn’t say it’d be all at once; maybe a new talent on one row at a time.
Adding anything new like talents or weapons, etc. is always a balance headache, but it’s more exciting and monetizable than a balance patch for an OP weapon or talent. As I’ve said before, I don’t play this game competitively, and the OP stuff isn’t so OP that it ruins the fun. I still find discussing potential new features more than the meta and balance. There are plenty of games I love that are not perfectly balanced, but they added many features I enjoy.
If I had to imagine Fatshark is working more on bugs in the Chaos Wastes, the next cosmetic DLC, and Sienna’s final career right now. There’s just so much more important stuff for keeping the game fresh and fun IMO than balancing the OP meta. If this was a competitive game in e-sports, I’d say the balance matters more than delivering exciting new content. If they announced Sienna’s final career, I’d be much more excited about that than any small balance patches.
I know we don’t agree on any of the above points, but that’s a difference of opinion; it’s subjective. I don’t have fun bickering over meta most of the time because It’s not interfering with the fun for me as much as it is for many people here.
If there is one piece of meta that I think is fairly broken, it’s the Chaos Wastes. There have been significant strides towards fixing disconnects and bugs because I haven’t had it crash once since the last patch. Now, the problem is that many of the boons, shrine blessings, and a few curses need a complete rework. The SotT, Javs, Moonfire etc, that’s all much less important to me than that although I hope that they do get fixed.
True that 18 new talents (well 12 since row 5 and 15 are “shared” with other career)
But those are balanced internally
Bringing a new column mean you have to balance 24 skill, not just the 6 new skills (And it would mean doing it for each character at the same time, unless they do it staggered)
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Lets not be silly here - Fatshark is working on Darktide and the closer its release date gets, the less financial sense doing anything for VT2 makes. In fact it’s quite the opposite - more people happily playing VT2 means less sales for DT because those two directly compete in the genre.
I’m referring to the team that’s still working on Vermintide 2, not the entirety of Fatshark.
If a 4th talent row was added, I’d like to see smaller modifiers (10%, neutral option), next to trade-off talents (still a net benefit), like 10% stam recov but 1/2 less stamina.
If column was meant, sorry. I’m out of ideas for it.
I believe so.
I think it’s a hypothetical for fun discussion. Why’s anyone not interested in the question responding to this thread anyway? That seems like the time waste if anything.
I argue what’s discussed in threads such as these may be applicable to modding. In the discussion of a 4th talent row, talents superior to the current ones have a chance of arising. At worst, nothing comes of it.
They’d get more answers there. Note the same users here objecting would likely provide the same objections on the subreddit.
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I like the idea of tradeoff talents in a 4th row. More risky things that could open up options for more builds. I was thinking of more utility or team talents that synergize well with certain careers.
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Stamina/BCR on some of the ranged Careers would go a long way, imo. And more utility/CC on already melee heavy Careers.
Some Careers are already stacked in terms of value though.
TBH anything that stops certain Careers only having one super optimal build, or Talents that feel way better than anything else on the row.
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To be honest, another talent row - even with tradeoffs - is nothing but powercreep. Either you get stronger / better in your job from the talent, or you don’t pick it. And the last thing this game needs is more powercreep.
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That doesn’t make sense at all. The severity of power creep depends on balance. There’s always a balance issue when new features are added, but it can be smoothed out, also doesn’t mean the balance issues would outweigh the fun I’ll have with more options since I’m not meta-gaming all the time.
Actually true. There’s things that have needed a nerf since before any of the new Careers even came out, that are still OP.
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It does make perfect sense. If you get a new talent on top of all the talents you already had you get more powerful. Simple as that. Only wouldn’t be true if the talent actually gimps you, and it would be a situation of “pick a weakness”, but I don’t think that’d be a very popular design choice. If you had to trade in a talent you already had to get a new talent, you might not get more powerful. But why would you pick that talent then?
Sure you could say you would do that to get more “variety”, like you want. But you’re not also going to tell me that there aren’t enough theoretical off-meta builds possible right now. Between weapon selections, trait & property selections, and 3^6 possible talent selections per class (of which we’re going to have 20 total) there are more off-meta builds than you can realistically play already. It’s not like introducing more talents would make a functional difference at all. It’d be nothing but wasted dev time. It’d be a lot better if they make the currently useless or bland talents better / more interesting than introducing more useless crap for the sake of completely pointless vAriETy.
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I still don’t follow the logic behind this. If you were to remove an entire row of talents and one was advocating for a 3rd row, would this same logic not apply? It’s over-inclusive logic.
It’s vastly oversimplifying things to say that one talent must be of greater or lesser power than another talent because for the more part, that all depends on how you play and how the talent creates synergy with the team, career passives, specific weapons, properties, traits, and other talents.
You’re aware that there are many off-meta builds, but where we disagree is their viability. I have about 6 or 7 builds for each class, utilizing most of their talents. There are only a few I avoid, and I suspect that may just be because I haven’t discovered how to make them useful yet; I’m not going to jump to the conclusion it’s useless simply because it doesn’t suit me or I haven’t found how to make it work.
Now, when it comes to the viability of many different weapons with different traits and properties, I think that often depends on the availability of talents and this is where I feel we need some more options. I would like to see some talents that synergize with the use of potions or bombs. It’d also be nice to see more team-share talents (though arguably those can be the most OP since they can multiply the effectiveness of a talent). I’d like to see more talents that can change the passives.
For example, some of these properties that could be useful with new talents are ones like revive speed, respawn speed, movement speed, power vs. Skaven, crit power, and any damage reduction on the necklace. Often talents will make these properties more useful, such as Handmaiden’s revive bonuses paired with revive speed or how Hellborg’s tutelage causes crits to occur 1 in 5 non-randomly, which opens up the opportunity to use more ‘power vs’ bonuses while still getting crits.
There are probably more viable builds than you realize and there could be more if you had more options.
I feel like there’s a misunderstanding here. Current talent system has 6 rows already. What 4th row is this thread about? Is it the 4th column maybe? Because it would make all the difference - adding a row adds another talent to a hero while adding a column adds more choice options for the same 6 talents.
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I was mostly commenting on the hypothetical situation where another row of talents would be introduced. As in: you can select another talent at level 35 from three choices, on top of all the talents you already have. And my point was that such a thing would absolutely be powercreep, unless the talent was a straight up debuff. I do agree that if another column of talents were to be introduced - as in: you can pick one out of four options instead out of three for each row - it wouldn’t nescessarily be powercreep. If the new option isn’t more powerful than the options that are already available, at least.
Now, from your last reply it seems that what you actually want is more viable (not nescesarily top of the meta but at least viable) builds. As in; a way to play a career in a role it can’t currently play. And I honestly don’t think there’s anybody here that wouldn’t like that. But where people are disagreeing with you, is that such a goal can be best achieved by introducing more talents.
There already are a lot of effectively dead talents in the game. Talents that hardly do anything, or talents that are competing with an alternative talent but are trying to enhance the same aspect of a character in an inferior way. Adding more talents on top of this situation instead of replacing some of the current talents will be needlessly messy because the useless talents would still be there, and if you are “forced” to introduce a new talent to a row that already has good choice variety there’s a good chance the obligatory new talent will be either crap or overpowered. It would be a lot better if the currently useless talents get changed to something that enhaces the character for a different role instead.
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Oops, yeah another column, a 4th column
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Just to be clear, my comment in this thread was also assuming you meant another row. Another column is an interesting discussion, sorry I would have engaged better if I realised that’s what you meant.