Ironhelm used to be a contender with Crucis because it was pretty easy to hit breakpoints for all non-boss enemies. I probably have at least 300 hours of pure ironhelm play time before it just got outpaced by the content. I really love the moveset. It’s just too weak right now to make me ever want to take it over the crucis. It’s one bonus was improved QOL regarding connecting with the special activation and the ability to reliably get overhead special activation strikes. Since all of that has been gradually granted to the crucis without significant buffs to the ironhelm it’s been consigned to the dustbin.
Funny enough Thunder hammer + Matyrdom + Stealth is my main. It started as an experiment and then it turned into admiration for the thunder hammer. It’s fun to use when you learn to dance with it. The thrust and talent that gives you + 50% cleave when 5 enemies are nearby really does a lot. When the heavy sweep with 110% cleave goes it hits like a truck. With 5(Or 4 doesn’t matter) of matyrdom stacks it’s feels like a mini version of the cord claw sweep. Generally I position myself that enemies run into the sweep. Otherwise it’s just the general push and dodge to yeet all of the enemies with the sweep.
The Thunder Big bonk is nice. Don’t really think it’s needs that much of a buff but it could be nice. The Big bonk does massive stagger so it’s not the end of the world that the mauler or crusher isn’t dead yet after 3 stack thrust. They are light work for you and your team after they got tagged anyway. Light bonks does the job if you want to kill spreaded light elites quick.
My only gripes with the hammer is the sprint speed even after the +5% movement speed is like 5.25 units and the time it takes to get your 3 stacks of thrust. If your team runs delete builds you can barely contribute due to the slower build ups for your hits. Then you are basically on Boss duty. I wouldn’t say no to a minor damage buff to 1 shot maulers on h40 with thrust 3. Stamina goes quick but you can just repeat slide to save stamina and quick move while charge up.
All and all for me this is the funnest way to play H40. It sure ain’t meta but it sure ain’t no sloath either. It’s methodical weapon that feels rewarding when you use it right.
Couldn’t take a single screenshot so I just quickly made a build thing in latern.
Edit: swap the revivespeed for +5% health on the curio
You could go with FotF and have take away the back stab damage and spec into more attack speed and finese damage. It would still be fun to play with when you get the hang of it. I just use stealth due to it’s utilities.
Found a super dope zealot bug yesterday. Fury of the faithful is canceling heavy attack animations right now. Uploaded a bug report.
You can get around it by just waiting after the impact to release the attack. That said, it definitely slows down zealot combat even more.
I think my point was that you shouldn’t need martyrdom or stealth in order to enjoy the thunder hammer. I do understand that it benefits from both of those.
Hopping into this discussion late, but you do not in fact need martyrdom nor stealth to make the hammer feel good.
For context, Ive been running IJ+FotF thammer for a while. Ive also run all possible variants including stealth+martyr, stealth+IJ, etc. across multiple patches. I even have run Piety+FotF and discovered that it’s H40 viable (fun but not great). I use both Ironhelm and Crucis all on havoc 40, and have been using this weapon almost religiously since Darktide first released.
In the current patch, I am of the opinion that IJ+FotF (standard 2 wound build, e.g this or some variant that swaps in duelist) is the best crucis thammer build. For ironhelm it’s IJ+FotF Fatmangus (on multiple occasions friends and I ran 4x ironhelm fatmangus and steamrolled)
IMO honestly, the majority of people shouldn’t even be touching stealth+martyr thammer builds. In fact, the sheer fact that this build is so popular is the primary reason why everyone is complaining about the thammer’s clunkiness and lack of damage – it is the most punishing when you make an error and the stealth uptime is not nearly as high as FotF. It also lacks the mobility endowed by FotF, and let’s not forget the AoE stagger that FotF provides.
Basically, if the community is using (and RECOMMENDING, for some reason) builds that are hard to use then I fully expect people to complain about how crappy the weapon is. It doesn’t need to be that way.
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If there’s anyone out there having mobility issues with this weapon, STOP using stealth. If you think that the hammer is too slow or clunky because you get hit during self-stun, STOP USING STEALTH. Switch to FotF. I have recommended this to every friend I know who hated the thammer (but wanted to try it) and this single advice has turned it around for them.
It’s miles better: you’ll kill more elites and you’ll do it more safely. Is killing bosses in 1 shot worth the tradeoff? People should decide that for themselves. (You’ll still kill bosses in 2-4 hits regardless). Stop recommending this stupid build unconditionally and don’t spread misinformation that stealth+martyr is the only option.
Notwithstanding the current patch’s bug where using ult/stealth cancels a heavy attack and does a light instead. That bug… should be fixed.
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As a side note, I think there are ways to give QoL changes to this weapon to make it feel 50x better to use. Some of the buff ideas given on this thread… (e.g. flat-out more damage??) ain’t it.
Beautiful assessment
Completely offtopic but not running duelist on every build and running fotf tickle hammer were amongst my “insane” takes the mob you run with used to attemp to ridicule me for.
Sheep mentality is hillarity itself.
Ontopic:
Will average 2 stacks in havoc, dogshit. My brain didn’t register the per TWO enemies for years, it’s that dumb.
I do use IJ with thunder hammer, and I’m not really complaining about it feeling clunky to use. I think it should feel clunky given its size and role. My issue is that it isn’t inherently very good at its role.
What I’m understanding from your post is that you have a build that makes the thunder hammer feel good and like it does enough damage IF you use FotF. I assume this means that you’re able to one-shot tougher enemies (Crushers, maulers, etc…) using a FotF charge, so you don’t get that awful feeling of having to charge and hit the same enemy multiple times to kill them. I’m not referring to bosses btw.
With your build, are you able to one-shot headshot a crusher without using FotF, or without having literally every buff possible active and maxed at the same time?
I have no doubt that your build is good and viable, and I’m not really saying that the thunder hammer can’t be viable. It’s my most-used weapon as well. But I maintain that the thunder hammer ultimately fails at its intended purpose and weapon fantasy if it’s taking multiple charged headshots to kill tough enemies on Auric with at least moderate investment (full thrust stacks + 25% carapace for example). I maintain that use of FotF, stealth, or martyrdom should not be required for the weapon to be able to do this. If they are, then why use the weapon in the first place? Those abilities will also benefit other weapons that don’t have the weaknesses of the thunder hammer.
IJ bonuses don’t apply on first hit, because why would they, so you have to trigger it before fotf in order to be able to onetap.
Somehow I doubt that it’s the duelist choice that made you butt heads.
Not taking duelist is giving up on free damage so it should be questioned. It just so happens that my build that I posted is for an h38 true duo that I posted a while ago with my buddy Kaudian playing arby. For h40 you SHOULD take duelist to reach more consistent crusher 1shots without fishing for backstabs, as there is a small enemy health boost between h38 and h40. However this is an optional choice that was spe ifically tested by me over multiple patches. I used to run it, I have now deemed it a good talent but optional, as I dont really care about killing crushers in 1 hit every time after they became extinct from the game.
Tickle hammer
This just makes you sound ignorant.
Lastly, Against the odds is one of those things that benefits the crucis specifically, as it helps with chaff clear (crucis is famous for having shitty horde clear in havoc). Having the talent vs not is a huge difference especially vs yellow and moebians modifiers. Even if the talent was a flat 30% cleave with no damage I would still be taking it.
Yes this is one of the annoying things about IJ they need to fix. Agreed on this.
You are right, it was for making fun of them for trying to make fun of me for not always taking duelist, but I’m sure they remember it very different 
. Water under the bridge, no one cares.
That is exactly what I’m saying, it really doesn’t. You’d prolly get more extra cleave running the stagger talents instead, with the added benefit of being able to bully dreg ragers as a payback to years of punishment endured by them wielding this excellent weapon! You need 16.2 to be able to cleave 4 H40 poxwalkers, and the heavies already do 16.5 to begin with, but you do you, I clearly have no clue what I’m talking about 
Superficial statements are my way of getting ideas through, apparently it works too good. I’m sorry thunder hammer, I didn’t really mean it that way!
Crusher is normally 2 hits but if you manage to stack enough buffs (i forget which combination exactly) it is a 1-shot. Partially it’s why the backstabber is there for an easy boost. (Note: in havoc 40!!! Not auric where crushers have half health!! ---->) Something like 20 IJ + backstab + 3x thrust + 5x headtaker + duellist is sufficient IIRC but I can’t test it right now (I’m posting while away from my pc for a few more days).
However, I don’t think any of those is a huge ask. You can check out my h38 duo vod where there are several moments where I pull off 1shots without duelist (h39 or h40 has an HP boost so you need the duelist I think for h40). I also don’t think crushers are really in the game anymore, so 1shots on those guys aren’t really important. For more recent gameplay check out my twitch vods, Click on any vod and you’ll probably find a TH game or two.
And I’m saying that even a small amount of cleave you’ll feel the difference immediately (as the heavies tend to stagger and knock poxwalkers back, the feel of hitting 1 or 2 fewer enemies adds up over time), so you’re not right. Try it in havoc, e.g. vs moebians. If you are desperate for even more cleave (e.g. rampaging modifier) I actually drop headtaker for “shock and awe”. It works great. In that case you can also drop the against the odds like you are saying as the extra cleave is redundant.
[Edit] also the “per every 2 enemies” thing you are citing is a distraction. We had a similar argument about this in a previous thread about low-cd IJ stacks on Fatmangus. The point is that you’re basing it off of the overall uptime – but uptime really doesn’t matter. The max bonus (50% by having 10 enemies) you’ll always get when you actually need it.
That’s the key point. Does the ability scale to max when you ACTUALLY need it to scale? (Even if it scales back down when you dont need it) If the answer is yes then its worth using.
As for ragers, it’s a simple solution. FotF staggers them all. Vs purple ragers you can FotF at them (it doesnt stagger them but you are briefly immune) kill one, dodge dance back and pick them off one at a time with your increased attack speed. It’s not as hard as you are making it sound.
If it’s like 10+ ragers then it’s not quite a thunderhammer problem, you can easily get killed vs them using any weapon really, so you gotta play smart by funneling them past an obstacle or use your ranged.
No moebians allowed mate, in the grim dark future, there is only blight. I still carry my shredder to just shoot dreg ragers, even after the maniac buff tbh, too lazy.
I think what you explaining is placebo, I’ve replaced it with punishment in pretty much all my builds, but is also part of the 1-3 points you can move around according to pref, so, whatever.
It TOTALLY should be 10% per enemy.
We may just agree to disagree, or you could argue that it’s not as important now with the reduction to crusher numbers. But I still think that if ALL of this is required to one shot an auric crusher with a charged headshot, then the thunder hammer is not succeeding in its intended role. At that point, I think most would conclude that thunder hammer has been power crept and they should just use another weapon (e.g. relic blade).
And remember that thunder hammer used to be able to do this without excessive buff stacking, FotF, stealth, or martyrdom. It only lost that ability when crusher HP was buffed to compensate for the goddamn dueling sword. I distinctly remember being able to 1-shot headshot auric crushers with a charged attack, full thrust stacks, and +25% carapace damage. That investment should be enough.
You shouldn’t have to do all of this buff stacking gymnastics, or be forced to use FotF or stealth, for it to do what it’s supposed to be good at.
@Spaghett I edited my post but I was talking about havoc 40. For auric you probably just need 20 IJ and 3x thrust. I dont really play auric so I dont actually know without testing. My bad.
However why is it so important to you that you reach these breakpoints without FotF? It’s basically always up. That is one of my main points – it’s not like stealth where you need to be saving it incase you need it.
@Phracatti also I invite you to read my edit above for my reply to you, resummarized here. I wager you are tracking the AtO stacks using the uptime mod, which tracks the stacks over the course of the whole game.
You actually do get max stacks, but only when you need it. We butted heads about this previously about a similar topic but for a different ability (low cooldown IJ). The fact that you have 1 or 2 stacks averaged during combat through the WHOLE GAME is meaningless. The only statistic worth paying attention to is the correlation between horde size you are fighting (e.g. # of enemy melee slots occupied as a proxy) and the AtO stacks.
yeah I hate uptime tracker because it is not acknowledging how a lot of zealot’s nodes are clutch-designed and peaking in power exactly when you need them and rarely falling off in that moment. duelist is incredible here, along with ato. but even as a cleave node, is it ever not active when you are meeting its condition? does it need full power all the time?
You had a valid argument for shorter cooldown having less downside playing premade 1v1v1v1 style, but that still doesn’t change the fact, longer is just better, even if you average 16, that’s still 20% off from performing at peak efficiency.
As far as fatmangus, the opportunity cost is too high to grab it agreed, in this case however, the polar opposite for me. As long as I have 16.2, the rest is whatever, and in special cases, grab shock’n awe like you mentioned.
And that exactly is why I don’t care to have it, it takes 10, while there are 8 slots around you. Before anyone mentions it, yes I know it doesn’t rule out having 10, but it heavily limits it, and as such, I’ll find more value elsewhere. 15-20% max stack combat uptime, compared to ragdolling ragers, I know which one I favor.
This is where we disagree, I value consistency over clutch performance. Just like in the case of the fatmangus thread, a different mindset is all. The questions that comes into mind is, would you have found yourself in a situation you have to clutch, have you had more consistent talents to lean on beforehand?