On last maps you delete everything anyway so what the difference? Or wait with event there is 2 similar where one is well better because specials can haras you on walls other is open big with literally only 2 spawn spots.
Overall there is clear difference between dlc weapons and base at being powercreep. They are just straight up better in most casees.
…Well indeed it is the nature of the wastes that someone getting a powerful boon can drastically drop the difficulty, but, assuming that doesnt occur the idea holds true.
Cries in literally 5 full runs without a single damage boon aside from 10% attackspeed
Wanna comment on Nurgloth fight; what I think is good about it is that the explosion mechanics play into a core element of Vermintide’s gameplay; positioning. It’s pretty simplistic, and sure there are problems with the implementation of other aspects of the fight. But it’s a hell of a lot more interesting than Skarrik or Bodvarr, isn’t it? These kind of positioning mechanics, with clear threat zones, need to be incorporated into more content. If you’ve played FF14:ARR (good god that acronym), you know how crazy these can get and yet people routinely play and beat them.
A note, too, about how games tend to cater to the general, often more casual playerbase rather than the elite; this is surely true and for good reason. Elite players just aren’t numerous enough to support the game. But that’s the beauty of new content like I suggested; new enemies and types can be scaled for lower difficulties! If we had, say, super elites, maybe on lower difficulties you could have one spawn in place of a boss sometimes on Recruit! It still gives that Recruit player more neat new content to play with, while things can be scaled up more for the hardest tier of players!
Regarding the Powercreep; another thought I’ve had for a long time, that comes from MMOs, would be that stats could have at least soft caps. If you stack 15% crit (for example), perhaps the value of crit can start to drop. There could even be a hard cap, but a soft cap would still at least lower the value.
The top offending stats are probably crit and attack speed. Both of them could get caps, which means the most basic level of gameplay can remain unchanged while preventing massive spikes of power from players. Fatshark clearly didn’t want that, since they seem to have hand-coded a lot of buff mixes to keep them from being OP.
Certain ults or talents that are intrinsically meant to be cool buffs (looking at you, Inherited Radiance) can maybe break these caps, but still be toned down. Incidentally, I think it’s a cool idea, but it’s just too strong.
Wouldn’t a solution be to integrate Cata+ and DWONS and modded difficulties into the official realm ?
I agree that this doesn’t fix the very real powercreep problem, as adding bigger numbers is not a solution, but if we can agree that Cata is the new Champ and Cata 3 is the new Cata, and just overall flatten the curve ( 
), we can get the learning curve back.
Problem with that is that ye olde DWONS’ challenge level does go down as overall character power level goes up, and this is detrimental to the handful of players who do play at this level. I am not one of them, but I do sympathize.
I think the solutions lie in reworks :
In any game, there are bound to be more and less effective ways of playing, but I have to agree that the bottom line of this thread is this one :
Not everything has to be good (and I don’t think many things are bad), but some spikes in the power chart can be and are being abused, and I think they should be hammered down a tad.
No, not everything has to be s++ tier material to be enjoyable to play. However its pretty apparent when something like mist shade or whc hits the same game and stuff is dying left and right and when you are playing with someone who is not playing the most optimal builds and weapons. Its 2 different games at that point.
Unlike SotT, I don’t think WHC is OP ; but this is not the current topic.
Valid points. I don’t think anyone disagrees with SoT being overpowered. However a majority of this post seems directed at vanilla game balance. I’d just say be careful about applying your viewpoint from modded realms to the base game. Most people struggle on cata, many struggle still on legend. All the finale events that you mentioned are still pretty difficult to this very day (especially Nurgolth).
I get it, at some point people get so good at the game that cata seems like heroic, but sadly those people are in the (heavy) minority. The reason these suggestion threads usually devolve into arguments moreso than suggestions is because of people like me who would hate to see our careers nerfed or the game made unrealistically hard so a few elite players can play vanilla again.
As far as I see it, the bandaid solution of modded IS the solution to players like you who can breeze through cata almost solo with your team mates barely killing anything. If the game was actually made challenging for you, most players would find it nearly impossible.
To close I’d like to say I mean no disrespect in this post, this is simply my thoughts put into words.
This got addressed in the original Post and I dont know why you bring it up.
The new stuff that got added shrinks the needed experience to play the highest non modded difficulty, which in turn makes it easier to be boared with non modded difficulties when you get better at what you are doing.
There is no reason at all for this to happen. New stuff can be useful, powerful, and not outright twice as good as what last update got released. There is literally craplouds of Ideas for nerfs of the nonsense FS put into the game the last months.
It does not need to be so strong that your team turns into spectators.
WHC is literally on every C3 DWONS+ team. If a career in any other PVP game such as LoL had WHC level of pick rate, it would have been nerfed already. Same goes for GK and bolt BW, the troika of V2 Cata+ that just reminds me of Corki, Graves, and Ezreal back in S2-S3 LoL days.
WHC is pretty definitely OP, but I don’t think bolt BW fits in the same area there. She’s crazy in modded because she has nuts breakpoints that very few others can achieve, without needing to stress about ammo or struggling as much for space as another sniper might.
Those things aren’t really as valuable on live, lots of ranged builds can do similarly well there.
Bolt BW is OP on C3DWONS because if you compare her to another special sniping class such as WS. Her bolt can one shot body shot all specials on C3DWONS even for targets that are far far away. Her ult provides CC, AOE damage and escape mechanism all in one package plus it has relatively short cool down. Furthermore, her farm THP is just something WS could only wish to do. She can do basically everything WS can do except a whole lot better. This is why BW is picked on almost on all C3DWONS+ team but not WS.
I’m aware, that’s why I talked about how she’s strong in modded stuff, but then said those strengths aren’t as valuable in live content as it’s much easier to reach breakpoints, avoid damage and generally you have more space to take shots.
Stuff is never going to be balanced around modded
Honestly, I think FS should just balance things around modded, C3DWONS. I mean most PVP games are balanced around the highest competitive level, not where most players are at but its just my opinion.
Uh, Verm2 isn’t a PVP competitive game.
Look at it this way : Convo wasn’t in line with the general difficulty of the rest of the game, it was a clear step-up from the rest of the level and the rest of the end-events, so it got nerfed.
Mirror this and you can see that there are builds that are out of line with the rest of the game, power-wise, and to me it’s only natural that they get brought back to the power level of the rest.
It’s not about making the game unrealistically hard, I think it’s about not making it unrealistically easy.
He’s a jack-of-all trades, master of none : that’s why he’s being picked. He’s not OP, he’s versatile while not excelling at anything. He’s good as he is.
This is both untrue and irrelevant. Vermintide is not a PvP competitive game, and PvP games are balanced for ALL levels (or at least they try).
My point wasn’t really if the mentioned careers are op or not. Even optimal careers which could be considered balanced are vastly more powerful than some of the more bottom end stuff. But like you said this is not really a balance discussion topic but I wanted to clarify this.
It’s mainly because of Flense and Assassin. WHC’s technical dps with Deathknell/Riposte is more skill reliant than other careers.
Bad example.
I would argue that Killing Shot at least in combination with Fervency adds to it. Because it is a very easy to apply technique with surefire result. Okay, you still need to headshot. But in the end you can critfish with light attacks. This particular technique has been removed in Vermintide 1.