After some preliminary testing, you all might consider switching one of these to the temp health on crit while in melee (similar to WS/BH). In many ways, pyro now plays like an atk speed/crit version of Unchained and this would synergize with her passive. I’d probably suggest replacing temp health on kill.
Really? Handmaiden is god tier? God tier at soloing/speedrunning, sure, but she definitely isn’t god tier for normal legend runs. I like her a lot, mind you, but I’d definitely put her behind zealot/slayer/shade/ranged meta classes pre-patch.
For waystalker, she has everything you want, but most of her stuff isn’t that strong. Her kit is mostly “solid ult, ammo regen, and good weapons”. That’s good, sure, but something like bh’s crits provide far more raw damage output.
Also, for elf careers in general, the dual dagger nerfs will hurt most of the top tier builds, and the glaive changes could also end up being a nerf in practice. I’d be careful about calling for additional nerfs until we get a feel for how balance shakes out in practice.
Why keep temp health around? I enjoy the mechanic. Particularly with the changes, you have to get into melee in order to get temp health, but it gives you some much needed wiggle room if you are able to melee successfully. Bonus healing + temp health talents should be pretty damn solid on the right melee class. Generating a ton of temp health in critical moments can easily be more helpful than a slow trickle of healing and heal share. That said, I wouldn’t argue with natural bond reducing the self heal from healing items by 30% or something.
The comment about patch notes parsing was about my feedback, not yours.
You had a bad day or something?
There’s nothing endless about that trait. I simply like support-stuff, and also getting rid of tep HP.
I wouldn’t respond to him… it never ends well, he just got out of a temp ban and he’s gonna blame us for “baiting” him into an argument.
Thanks for looking into the glaive Hedge. Also, temp hp on cleave doesn’t seem to be working properly. On 2 enemies it doesn’t seem to proc.
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New dual daggers heavy kills SV with 3(!) bodyshots with 30%(!)VS Skaven itembuild. The bleed change seems almost irrelevant. If daggers needed to be balanced around shade, why would you nerf it’s main damage burst? Remove bleed from daggers entirely, if balance is to be sought somewhere, but heavy is really underwhelming now. Inb4 people start telling me it’s a headhot heavy - I understand, but even with 30% Skaven build a heavy headshot does not(!) kill SV anymore. Maybe that was intended, but it certainly does not help Shade snipe elites and specials (like the balance post explained).
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No
Me too, but i meant… This one together with the new NB or chance on not consume seems to end in endless heal. The amount of heals on the most maps is too high. (Especially 4 heals before events/ lords)
I don’t know your playstyle/skill/experience, so it’s quite hard to argue about it.
1st the dd nerf was needed… It was strong before the melee weapons buff and got buffed again Lul. Her overall Arsenal got fixed/buffed, so this wouldn’t affect her that hard.
The HM is able to true solo legend quite easy. Her ultimate let you avoid a lot of dangerous situations (disabler, patrols) through it’s range, stealth and los cd’s. On top of that it bleeds hordes to death , meanwhile you’ve 3s to kill anything out of the stealth.
She was and probably still is a strong boss Killer too through the extended hero power.
She might got no endless ammunition , but her overall buffed dmg, utility, mobility and surviveability makes her definately a good tier career.
The WS got too much with all. She is easy to play, can kite everything , got a special deleter ultimate , tons of ammunition, lifereg and dmg… She has it all and 0 con.
The problem with temp health is the comfortable LMB smash. Either it’s too strong or it’s too low. You can’t really balance it.
Some perks like the new heal-share and maybe 20-40 more base health ( based on career ) would be better.
The new temp health traits force the players to a special weapon / playstyle and that isn’t great in my eyes too.
“WS can kite everything”. Okay. I’ll just leave it there. “0 con at all”. Do you main elf? I don’t know whether it’s a lot, but I’m elf 30+439 and 90% of it was on legend - WS is the WEAKEST of the three careers… By far. You should really relax and go play with the nerfed weapons first. Then test the buffed weapons to realize that they are still somewhat underwhelming and, as such, elf’s kit really hasn’t been expanded all that much. Besides, the fact that her strong weapons have been nerfed makes that kit more meager than before. Honestly, it feels like people didn’t test things at all…
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Shame. Take care all.
Dual daggers were definitely in the “a nerf is plausible” range. However, if you nerf a character’s best weapons and buff the worst weapons to the same level as the nerfed best weapons, THAT’S A NERF. Her max power is weaker than it used to be.
With handmaiden, I agree that she is extremely powerful for true solos. However, that power doesn’t translate well to normal games. The one talent is obviously useless when other people are alive, invis is less useful when other people are alive (enemies don’t stand around waiting for you to kill them), and dropping aggro with invis can definitely hurt your team. Frankly, I don’t think power levels in true solo is a particularly relevant question, unless that power translates over into normal 4 man groups. If you think invis handmaiden is too strong for true solos, then don’t play invis handmaiden in true solos. In the vast majority of games, handmaiden isn’t a notable outlier in terms of power.
With temp health, I think that being able to take occasional hits while clearing a horde is fine. I don’t think that old temp health was broken, and losing temp health on ranged kills makes it that much worse.
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Might already be said but Kerilian’s 2-h sword is criting every time on the push stab for me.
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@Fatshark_Hedge This talent only gives 20 HP, it wasn’t changed from before beta.
WS temp HP seems really hard to get… Tried both talents, with 1 handed sword. I had to use my ULT to keep it up, and I lost more temp HP, even with a horde and cleave HP than I gained.
Also, their is a audio bug, the game keeps getting quieter and quieter as the missions progress. Then you go back to the keep and it’s blasting because you had to turn it up.
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Initial random thoughts after testing elf weapons out on dummies:
Sword and dagger seem pretty dead. The first charge seems to be nerfed across the board, the second charge isn’t going to be oneshotting stormvermin any time soon, and the left clicks were never that good. There’s no way I’d take sword and dagger over dual swords on anyone.
Dual swords will probably be really nice. The armored cleave will probably be really helpful, particularly since crit left clicks deal legit armor damage.
Dual daggers are probably dead. They aren’t useless, but 1h sword and 2h sword charged headshots both deal more damage than dual dagger headshots, and their horde clear was also nerfed. At that point, why bother? Shade might still use them for ult synergy, but I don’t see why anyone else would want them. I’d nerf either the left click horde clear or the charge attack damage, but not both.
Glaive will be interesting. The new charge 2 headshot damage is truly nutty (50+ damage to armored opponents), though I’d prefer it if you sped up the combo without touching the damage (or even nerfing the damage a bit). Getting the combo off is already a pain, and we need to rely on that more now that left click armor damage is getting nerfed. Still, though, the weapon should be usable. The left click vs push attack speed changes are definitely welcome. CAn’t repro the “can’t block after left clicks” issue – when I left click twice and then right click, I block dead on time.
2h sword seems far better now. The buffed armor damage is nice, and the buffed push attack speed is great. Can confirm the constant crits on push stab.
1h sword also seems really good. It was already on the edge of being good, and the extra attack speed and charge attack damage are definitely appreciated.
Overall, 1h sword, 2h sword, dual swords, glaive, and maybe spear (I don’t like spear’s style in general, so I can’t really comment) seem like the top options of the patch. The should all be roughly in the same vicinity power-wise, though some might need some tweaking. Dual daggers and sword/dagger probably need some love, though.
Edit: did some testing on the modded realm for shade ult boss damage. Results: dual daggers are completely dead. The new best shade weapons are spear, 2h sword, and dual swords. Spear is the highest boss damage, but you need to land charge 2 to maximize your damage (it looks like it deals roughly 400 damage – more than enough to 2 shot a recruit rat ogre). 2h sword is the second highest boss damage, with barely more than you need to 2 shot a rat ogre. so less damage, but you easier to use since you can use the first charged attack against bosses. Dual swords deal roughly 340 damage (ie almost enough to 2 shot a recruit rat ogre – clearly less than either prior weapon), but you should be able to one shot an ungodly number of chaos warriors/stormvermin with the charged attacks vs armor. Dual daggers and sword and dagger are down around 200 ish damage. So not only are they shitty against hordes and merely decent against armor, but they don’t even synergize with shade ult anymore. Woo.
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Agreed on pretty much everything. Though, I’d say, glaive needs some tweaking just like you said. SnD feels pretty bad. Spear still feels meh. DD were overly tweaked.
Won’t say anything about melee nerfs/buffs, rather about talents. Sadly for me, but devs chosed one of the worst scenario’ I could imaginate: nerf funny things because they’re “op”. I was really hoping they would buff “weak” things up, but no.
This was him just talking out of his ass, probably.
It seems he should simply go back to Verm1. It’s a completely different game now. Verm2 is about temp HP, huge hordes, game-changing ultimates and huge difficulty spikes that you can still overcome.
After playing the patch for 3 hours, I can say that the only thing I don’t like so far is the huge nerf to Pyro. Pyro might not exist anymore, tbh. You overdid it here.
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Seconded. Pyro needs temp HP on crit instead of temp HP on kill to be playable. Right now, Pyro might not even exist. She is a ranged-focused career that has a crit bonus on high heat but no temp HP that really suits that playstyle.
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I’ve noticed a lot of enemies being pushed into walls by hits. Also noticed an increase of enemies phasing in and out of your line of sight.
I’ve been enjoying the changes so far. It’s for sure made Legend Deeds a bit more difficult. Especially on elf, I can only speak from WS/HM point of view right now. I think the daggers were hit too hard by the nerf hammer and the glaive doesn’t respond properly with too much attack speed. I’ve gone back to using my old 1 handed sword, but it seems to be nearly impossible to get even any Temp HP. And it seems to decay so much faster, 1-2 hp every second drops off. I’m gonna test the spear and 2handed sword tomorrow after I get some sleep.
Oh, btw, 2 handed sword crits every push attack. And for Zealot, the passive, “Heart of Iron” triggered for me when a team mate died. I still had 50 something HP…
After a few runs, my view is that these seem very good changes. For the record, I was playing Bounty Hunter Saltzpyre, I am GLAD he can’t infinitely sustain his ammo now. I actually had to think about it. I was running Crossbow with Scrounger and using the “melee kills reset blessed shot”. I wanted to see if by alternating melee kills and crossbow I could delete hordes the same way I used to and come out with full ammo.
My result: Technically you can, but it’s much more difficult and requires optimal enemy positioning. If they are in a long line, you can still smash them with crossbow shots, melee one, and you’re good.
The only thing I’m not liking right now is how long enemies can’t track you after dodging. Three seconds feels very excessive right now, and patrols don’t even concern me at this point. I like the idea, at least in the imperfect world where we have to take into account latency. I am gonna play around more, maybe I’ll grow to love it. I just don’t want to see the game becoming too easy. Maybe it if adjusted for difficulty?
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Yeah, the tracking thing has a big impact. Probably it would be wiser to limit angular velocity of tracking enemies? So bosses do not insta-retarget by 180 degrees, and SVs do not hit you with their overhead after your dodge is over even when they started the overhead before you dodged. Food for thought.
Really not a fan of the level 20 talent changes. They indirectly nerf more than just ranged. Bombs and career skills no longer give temp health, some of which is their main purpose, handmaiden for example. Getting temp health also seems to be very slow (getting the kills one, rats give barely more hp than the decay speed, not sure about the cleaving or staggering ones but they seem awkward. Getting kills doesn’t trigger the staggering one so it’s almost useless against rats that die to 1 hit typically and cleaving is weapon dependent so also kind of awkward)
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