Played since Beta and I really feel like Dark Tide’s insistence that there always be enemies spawning in all directions 100% of the match and almost always have enemies in your face has pigeon holed its classes game play into one style. There is no such thing as clearing a room for even temporary safety as stuff just spawns constantly from any direction or can climb to any perch or balcony.
If there were segments of maps, or even just specific maps, where spawning direction was more restricted to create some engagements that are just at medium and even long range it would add much needed variety to the game. To clarify I’m not saying it shouldn’t emphasize melee as one priority, thats an important part of Dark Tides identity, what I am saying however is that medium and long range engagements shouldn’t always be “switch to ranged for two shots to kill a gunner or sniper while dodging the half dozen melee that are on top of you”. There should be segments of maps where you can clear a room, post up in a window or on a balcony and engage at range and cover fire for teammates in melee without the 100% guarantee something is going to hit you in the back if you don’t turn around after one or two shots.
When you’ve got thousands of hours in the game like I do you really start to feel how similar so many things actually play, even this brand new class feels little different in actual use, and that really comes down to how the way Dark Tide’s structured its encounter design. There should be maps that are just wall to wall enemies from every direction, there should also be maps that are almost exclusively head long pushes where enemies only really come from one direction, maps where defensive hold out positions can be cleared of enemies that they can’t spawn in and have to run to so that ranged focus classes can cover melee focused ones.
Playing sniper veteran has been an exercise in this exact frustration. It’s really satisfying to click a bunch of heads, but the constant upkeep of having to switch to melee or drop a grenade at my feet just to not die because my team can’t babysit me all the time really drains the fun out of it.
Vermintide has a much clearer emphasis on where the frontline and backline is. In Darktide, the backline is the frontline - if nobody is killing things near you, then you have to kill those things yourself, and it’s kind of annoying.
I really like the verticality of Relay Station’s finale and wish maps incorporated more vertical elements into their design.
Yeah like the bridge in the torrent maps where you have to defend (until they all start coming out the walls near you).
Trouble is that power creep means the enemies wouldn’t stand a chance in a bottle neck lol. They just get melted by everything nowadays.
Thing is I think this is a symptom of this problem. If enemies weren’t always coming from every direction at all moments, if there were areas or maps or stretches of maps where ranged builds could fall back a little and rely on melee builds to screen them, then it wouldn’t be necessary for us to melt everything the way we currently can. And it also wouldn’t require the game flood the screen with dozens of carapace armored bullet sponges to provide any kind of challenge either. I think allowing the game to slow down a little would have a lot of positive knock-on effects to how its being designed.
CobaltNinja
Playing sniper veteran has been an exercise in this exact frustration. It’s really satisfying to click a bunch of heads, but the constant upkeep of having to switch to melee or drop a grenade at my feet just to not die because my team can’t babysit me all the time really drains the fun out of it.
Yeah, as someone that loves semi-auto or bolt action battle rifles in shooters I get that. Unfortunately the game has moved more and more in the direction of a twitch-based shooter that never wants to give you any downtime. Precision shooting to eliminate high priority targets in DT means you are dodging and sliding around the 6+ fodder and couple elite enemies trying to smack you no matter how many times you clear them out.
I don’t mind the melee and close quarters combat having that kind of frenetic play. It’s satisfying hotswapping to a revolver on my zealot to drop a hard target and sliding right back into my sword dancing.
I just wish the game could also offer more methodical options in addition to that. Builds and weapons designed with the idea that we can make space that will be reliably safe for long enough to step back and make methodical shots. I would like to see a Dark Tide where I could choose a front line build and weapon set and jump into the frenetic twitch based play if I want, or a methodical back line unit that focuses on more careful play and support. It’d be a much needed way to truly mix things up.
Having reliable knowledge of the whereabouts of their spawning would just lead into everything either being obliterated at max range, or spawncamping, as it have before.
Yeah, I absolutely do. Adding variety to the games pacing would go a long way to making everything feel better on top of opening up design room for more unique feeling classes by getting the game out of the pigeon hole its encounter design is stuck in.
Having reliable knowledge of the whereabouts of their spawning
We already have this. There are mods that show us exactly where the triggers are for bosses, hordes and specials. And even if you don’t want to use them, if you play enough to can figure this out yourself on every map. So this is a completely irrelevant point.
into everything either being obliterated at max range, or spawncamping, as it have before.
Everything already gets obliterated at every range. The constant spawning from everywhere and the push to have enemies in your face as close to 100% of the time as possible is the bandaid they are using to try and fix this but its a wrongheaded approach.
If you back off from always having things spawn everywhere, and allow yourself to slow down the pace to add variety, you can also increase the durability and danger of specific enemies and enemy spawn compositions in these situations because you aren’t balancing around having the entire party constantly surrounded. This is already close to how Vermintide works and it works very well.
I tend to agree, the pacing these days feels a bit off as a result. At the very least the spawning right on top of you should be stopped, it’s not particularly fun and leads to weird buggy behaviour by things like bursters or disablers. It’s also just silly to watch a door open into a black hole with an invisible wall while you can still hack at enemies through it. It’s inelegant and immersion breaking on top. They should set up swarms and ambushes, but honestly. I think it would go a long way to balancing the issue of not having reliable engagement ranges.
It would also make things seem less like an endless slog from start to finish.