Greatswords need Love!

corus is def a bit overtuned, the amount of damage it can put out even in cata is pretty absurd, SV pats just might as well not exist. though I’d argue shotguns and other staffs still make greatsword fairly pointless, they’ll pretty much always clear out density faster than it can.

as for rebalancing corus, I think it needs to come alongside a larger sienna rebalance. the weird unintuitive mechanics to stop it being super busted on BW are not a good path for further weapons to go down, imo, and stuff often feels bad on other careers because BW is so so strong.

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Hey, I hear ya here. Power creep is definitely a thing and there are weapons that need some serious down-tuning. But when we get those balanced down, it’d be nice to see some of the underperformers brought up at least a little.

And @Lord_Giggles makes a point better than me; I was thinking of many ranged weapons as easily out-performing the greatsword at horde clearing, though even many other melee weapons seem to be able to reasonably deal with a horde while also not lacking in armor damage.

@Frostysir You are right that the Greatswords and Glaive aren’t that similar, I was only suggesting the one comparison of giving them some armor piercing damage on lights.

@Adeon - yeah, I know the one you’re talking about. Gripping the blade with both hands and bonking people with the hilt or pommel haha. But it is a bit better on greatswords, as they typically had a ricasso - an unsharpened part of the blade specifically for gripping. It’s why some had spikes on the sides of the blade, to serve as a second crossguard and protect the hand while half-swording. The leather wrapping on some claymore-style swords was done to give a better grip on the blade.

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And i do not think it should have that, it already does have it on it´s heavies(+even more cleave than the lights) which at least merc and GK can get ample use out of.

I think it´s perfectly fine to have lights for chaff hordes and heavies for mixed ones in the case of GS.

I just figure it fits well into Warhammer lore, and would be a nice little buff that’s also not going to make it broken - on tabletop Empire Greatsword units had anti-armor properties, taking -1 or -2 from armor saves (I can’t recall which).

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Does anyone genuinely FS cares about balance anymore?

Just give GS anti armour on lights and have at it.

Why on lights though…?

As a genuine greatsword expert, I honestly don’t know where to begin. I’ve gone over so many times why I disagree with the idea that the weapon is weak, that it kind of gets tiring.

I’ll start off with armour first, and I’ll actually say that armour - is not as significant a threat in this game as people would like to believe. Half of the elites in this game are completely unarmoured, such as Chaos berserkers, plague monks and maulers. The latter of which is about as common and arguably more annoying than Stormvermin, and the former being deadly enough as to warrant shotgun builds primarily just to deal with them fast and efficiently. Greatsword actually shreds both of those. Genuinely one of the highest DPS weapons against massed clumps of maulers or berserkers. Not only that, it’s an extremely safe weapon to kill them with, since the wide sweeping heavies will cleave through anything that’s in the way and control/kill the chaff, and occasionally stagger these elites.

Stormvermin don’t have that much health, they’re genuinely pretty squishy, and they’re easily staggerable. What it comes down to is the wrong technique in dealing with them. Never just spam push-attacks, it’s a waste of stamina, and in my experience it’s an actual loss in damage and safety. When fighting armour, instead alternate between Heavy 1 and Push-attack. Heavy headshots and Heavy crits stagger Stormvermin. Staggered enemies are more susceptible to stagger, which lets a simple push stagger them even further. With Mainstay - that’s 60% more damage. Directly after the heavy attack you headshot with a push-attack. On Legend this 2 shots a singular lone Stormvermin on Legend last I played on that difficulty.

So what does this actually mean? That Stormvermin hordes are incredibly simple to fight with greatsword if you alternate between heavy and push-attack. No, you’re not staggering the entire horde like with a shield, but it does make it incredibly easy to dodge and kill, since they stagger easily. With Mercenary I cleave like 5 Stormvermin, stagger around 3 of them, dodge the other 2, then push-attack (which by the way is incredibly easy to get headshots with due to the angle of the attack) and actually deal good damage against armour. I say this with completely certainty, that I would rather fight a Stormvermin patrol with a greatsword, rather than an executioner sword or even halberd.

The weapon is just great against mixed hordes. It’s incredibly easy to use since you just need to spam heavies, the attacks have a wide sweep angle hoovering up everything in front of you, and it cleaves through just about anything, meaning no berserkers can hide behind Chaos Warriors, or any slave rats behind Stormvermin.

The mobility it has is a huge advantage over something like the executioner, having 50% more dodge count and 10% dodge range. Combined with the stagger, it’s very ergonomic when handling hordes solo.

It works well with most of the careers that can use it, like Mercenary, since the huge raw power% boosting damage, cleave and stagger simultaneously, which greatsword (in my opinion) benefits disproportionately more than most weapons in the game, and always having permanent Paced Strikes (something that I sometimes miss when using something like halberd). It’s not good with Huntsman or BH, 2 ranged focused classes, which I think is perfectly acceptable.

What are my credentials? 1700 hours in the game, many of those hours having played Mercenary with greatsword since the literal start of me playing this game, going through Champion to Cataclysm and beyond with it.

Do I think the weapon needs to be buffed? No, I unironically think it’s actually good, I just simply can’t have any other opinion when I’ve used it this much and compared it to other weapons. Do I think it could use changes? Yes, it’s a rather dull weapon in terms of its moveset, and I’ve done topics in the past on what precisely greatsword could use to make it more fun (the topic was on the Beta Feedback section of the forums, which is now forever gone, but maybe someone will remember the paint illustrations I did there). Yes, give a new function to light attacks (not armour-piercing though), add some sort of mordhau attack, etc. Anything but a buff man, please.

Here’s a comment in the past that I made going more in-depth on the stats of the greatsword: Kruber - Greatsword vs Executioner's sword - #4 by Rebel

TL;DR - greatsword good.fight me nerds

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Haha, I appreciate the expertise here, and as a disclaimer I really don’t have a strong opinion on greatsword balance apart from not using them much BUT devil’s advocate -

Do you think that the greatsword is good because it’s a good weapon compared to other choices or is it good because you have 1700 hours in the game and have used it enough to consider yourself a greatsword expert?

Maybe it’s like - greatsword CAN be good but the learning curve is MUCH steeper than other weapons?

That could account for some of the disagreement here. Like, weapons that are hard or unintuitive to use (push - heavy 1 headshot!) Could easily be seen as worse weapons than they are, and MAYBE the power could stay the same but the usability could be tweaked? Vs another weapon like great hammer which can just kill everything. Lights for armor, heavies for hordes. It’s pretty straightforward.

IDK just spitballing.

Obviously I am biased towards greatsword, so I can’t say with absolute certainty. I have used other weapons on Mercenary, such as halberd, 2h hammer, a little bit of executioner, 1h mace and so on, and yeah, I genuinely do prefer using greatsword over all of them. I feel safer, I feel more comfortable, I feel more effective. From my perspective, I do think that greatsword is objectively a good weapon, I just think greatsword gets a lot of negative press, which leads people to believe it’s weak without giving it a proper try. Of course, some people will legitimately dislike the weapon, but that can be said for any weapon.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a steeper learning curve. The weapon is very simple to use (essentially just spam heavies, mix in overheads against elites and light attacks against light hordes), it’s moreso that people try to use it more like an executioner sword, and maybe don’t understand all the secondary advantages it has like significantly better dodge and mobility, don’t acknowledge the usefulness of elite cleave as much, so they don’t use those advantages as much and don’t push the weapon as far as it can go.

Yeah, I agree that the functionality of the greatsword could use tweaking, like giving light attacks a different role since they’re 90% redundant due to heavy attacks, and add some new attack animations at least for the sake of extra visual flair. But I’d say that if a person wants to use a weapon that is very simple in the roles that its attacks perform (like 2h hammer), then I’d say that those weapons already exist and people are free to use them. I don’t see much point in homogenizing the greatsword to be more like other weapons that already exist.

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Your opinion is noted. Most of the rest of the community disagrees, including its top players who view it as very under-performing. The good thing about Vermintide is that anything can be made to work with a good enough grasp of the core gameplay loop.

It does sound like you would agree with most of the ideas I’ve put forth, though, that would make it more interesting to use - aside from the (entirely loreful) idea of AP on light attacks.

But I don’t agree with a single suggestion you’ve put forward. Giving light attacks AP just feels weird, why is a light slap from a sword piercing armour? What’s the point of armour? And if you’re suggesting anything like the glaive, then it’s going to be pretty much useless, since it already does better against armour with heavies and push-attacks.

Talked about it before, I don’t think it lacks against any sort of armour except Chaos Warriors, which I think is perfectly fine for a weapon to be weak against certain enemy types. Weaknesses are a big defining factor of what makes a weapon unique.

Why make it a special attack? It just makes it feel weird cause you can’t charge up special attacks and hold them, they feel awkward to use if they’re not utility like billhook. I’d like a stab attack, but not even because I want the armour damage to be buffed, I just want to see different attacks visually.

I don’t really like that either. I can’t explain fully why, it’s just weird.

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Not really, Greatsword is a pretty simple weapon. People just don’t try it. The issue that Greatsword has, is that it is a weapon with a lot of horizontal damage AND control. However, people have a weird focus on vertical damage unless the cleave is really really low.

The sword is good on Mercenary, Grail Knight and Foot Knight and I am pretty sure on Zealot and WHC as well. Personally, as a Foot Knight Cataclysm player I would easily chose it over 2H hammer, Halberd, Bretonnian Longsword or Executioner. The safety - especially against mixed hordes - the weapon provide is incredible and that is without using Attack Speed talents or traits. It is simply a good weapon.

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Ah, it must have been someone else who agreed it should be more interesting.

Well, there’s always a few people who will argue to the ends of the Earth for anything, so I can’t say I’m surprised. You must be the only one I’ve ever heard who doesn’t recognize that armored enemies are a substantial threat.

I do try it. I play every weapon, the only ones I can’t really make work in current Cata are 1H axes - it just takes too long to clear hordes unless you’re running something like Flamethrower Ironbreaker.

I mained the Executioner Sword in VT1, and it was never a good weapon. It couldn’t even one-shot headshot Stormvermin (and headshotting was more finicky in game 1), but I loved it. I used it to solo nearly every map on Cata. I know how cleave weapons work, and what they need to be able to do to be functional. The Greatsword does not reacj those in practice. Again, any weapon can be used because of the nature of the game - there are just clear winners and losers.

I’ve said it multiple times already, man. I don’t think you’re reading anything I’ve said; no, it is not realistic, but Vermintide is also not realistic, and in the lore of Warhammer, Greatswords are anti-armor weapons. They pierce armor on the “rule of cool”, pretty much. It’s a fantasy, and the current form of the Greatsword is so unpleasantly unrewarding to use for the majority of players. So why not actually play into the lore here and make it more interesting in the process?

But out of curiosity (because I really want to like this weapon) - what are some people’s suggestions for their best Greatsword class?

I would say Foot Knight. But if you want to have a really easy time probably Zealot or Mercenary. But I have also seen WHCs excel with the weapon in Cataclysm PUG’s

It’s not necessarily about realism, it just feels bad. If something is armour-piercing, I want some weight behind the attacks, or for there to be some logical sense as to why it’s armour-piercing. Light attacks doing armour-piercing damage would feel weird and bad for me. And it’d be completely negligible and not actually used for that purpose

https://www.ranaldsgift.com/1/111121/17,4,3,6/14,1,6,7/3,2,1/1,5,2/7,2,2

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I think its boring and extremely simple to do reasonably well, so the weapon itself might not need buffs to make it stronger but I would not be against some new animations/combos to make the weapon bit more skill expressive and maybe stronger trough that way.

The above will probably not happen in V2:s lifetime but that’s how I would personally tackle the weapon.

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yeah the weapon isn’t bad by any means, just could use some extra spice in the moveset is all and it’s definitely got room for it

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So I have to disagree here. Kruber has 3 longish swords.

  • Exe sword - slow, can kill mobs, great vs armor
  • Bret - complex moveset that has a good skill ceiling
  • greatsword - amazing cleave, simple weapon

I think the greatsword’s personality is fine as-is; if you want a more complex longish weapon, then pick one of the other two. Personally, I use greatsword on foot knight, and make active use of my f-power to shape the battlefield, while relying on the GS to clean things up.

For saltzy, it’s horde-clear weapon option for those who want to focus on armor with range. One of the nice things about greatsword is that you can actually dance just out of range of zerkers & plagues and hit them in the head, and that complements well with saltzy if you want it to.

-Jeff

P.S. GS does have a good push-attack, it’s worth learning to integrate it.

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I’m being hyperbolic.


I love the Greatsword on FK, and if I could only change 1 thing it would be that the push attack used far less stamina or wasn’t even gated behind stamina or had a better headshot damage profile or something.

Greatsword is a bit of a pain to learn as many people are used to heavy swings of a 2h weapon will automatically stagger most things, and when the opponent doesn’tstagger and the player sucks up a hit… well weapon must be BS> and they never persevere beyond this point of re-learning to assume something isn’t staggered.

It doesn’t happen too often, but when you get a heavy swing through a horde kills 3 SV it’s such a good moment and the push-gives-attack-speed talent on FK (And Handmaiden with 2h sword for that matter) you can really turn on the LMB lawnmover in a normal horde at Legend…

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Incidentally, what difficulty do you use this on?

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