Gifts of the Wolf Father and Patch 5.2.0 Patch Notes + Hotfixes!

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Announcements
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102

Then let me use this as an excuse to post this another time. This would be my suggestion. Reload would “hurt” to make spam unfavourable. But you still have the versatility in all situations.

  • Remove Javelin interaction with ammo traits/talents/passives so it can only be reloaded manually and will always have the same amount of ammo
  • Double reload time
  • Add slowdown while reloading down 50 % movement speed and dodge distance or less
  • Increase Javelin ammo to 5 or 6

The result will be a sniping weapon which has advantages in pressure situations and which can occassionaly be used against ambients and hordes. But spamming is more discouraged as you waste valuable ressources. Also, you cant stay in front of the team all the time and leave a trail of devastation as the team has now at least a chance of catching up.

103

I’m generally not up at arms against the proposal. But I’m still on a fence about second, third and fourth bullet points, and the reason is - it’s too easy to screw up balancing it, and you won’t know you screwed up until it’s out on live and people just stop using the bloody thing. Because there’s nothing you can do short of live testing to discover that “2x reload time, 50% movement speed, 5-6 javelins” is that ultimate sweet spot where it’s balanced against other weapons but still useful and comfortable to play and reliably performs its function. You roll it out on live, and suddenly people run into situations where either they end up with “one reload” worth of use because combat is too hectic to reload in the middle of it, or run into “oh gosh I just spent a javelin on SV and I don’t have enough for those two globadiers suddenly coming in”, and million others you can’t predict. Weapon has to be reliable to use it in difficulties with very high cost of making a mistake, and tinkering with stuff that affects reliability always runs the risk of excluding the weapon from the game entirely, that’s the only reason I’m queasy here.

If I’m honest, I don’t think the issue of spamming it is still standing post-nerf, as it is on live. Spamming was a thing before when javelin could go through the horde and leave enough space in front of you to reload. Now, 1-2 javelins from the front line, and even with current speed of reload, the horde will be on you because you’re not leaving a lane of bodies in javelin’s wake anymore. So, is spam an issue still? I don’t feel it is, though of course I’ll need to run it more to get the feel of it (not that it’s worth running as it is now).

What I do think could be done is interaction of reloading part with attack speed bonuses. It’s okay to dish out three javelins faster, the phase of actually throwing them, I think, should be affected; the speed of reloading (e.g. ‘preparation for next special’) probably shouldn’t benefit from attack speed modifiers since spawn rates are still the same. That part I think could be done without harm to javelin’s viability.

104

No, I think the values are chosen quite good already. On Cataclysm you can have at max 5 specials in short succesion of which all die with 2 bodyshots or less. So, you can snipe specials for the most part. Also, during hordes, you don’t move much anyhow so the slowdown is not important here.

You can still use it against ambients but it is discouraged. Because the Javelin may be needed later. Alternatively, you have so slow down meaning you can’t run ahead of the whole team anymore. It keeps the Javeline versatile but the spam against ambients is less an issue.

So, to not talk aside each other. My spam issue is against ambients and useage in each situation. Not only against hordes.

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105

Hm-m, I see where you’re coming from, and I’m not sure if I can analyze overall balance and all implications right now, but I think you have to consider javelin against other weapons too. There’s no reason to limit javelin spam against roaming ambients, since people already do it using moonfire or longbow, and they’re just so much easier to get headshots with owing to flat trajectory and no damage dropoff. So, is there a point? Yes, you can make people reload slowly before killing next roaming stormvermin, but they’ll just shrug and equip moonbow instead, or headshot things with longbow from mile away. It’s just another way to exclude javelin from the game.

Looking deeper into it, what you propose effectively makes javelin a short-burst weapon with a long waiting period between bursts. Does it remind you of anything? Yes, we already have one such weapon - the moonfire bow. It’s not a good thing to make two weapons with essentially identical mode of use, and no matter how you tweak the numbers afterwards, they’ll always be competing for the same place under the sun.

Bottom line, post-nerf to armor, spam against hordes is not a thing. Spam against ambients - no point fighting it, all Kerillian’s ranged weapons allow such spam. All of them have own drawbacks already (javelin - ballistic trajectory, moonfire - kill delay, longbow - requirements for headshots), all of them have own advantages. Don’t get me wrong, I also would be happy if somehow, magically, javelin’s ranged function would be limited to sniping specials and occasional stormvermin or monk, adding versatility to what it should be - nice frontline or boss melee weapon with consciously taken risk of knowing when to dodge to back line or switch to shield. I’d be a happy camper if it was so. I just don’t think slowing down reload is the way to accomplish it, both because you can’t be sure about numbers (5 specials x 2 shots = 10 javelins, but then occasional skavenslave body-shields a special and group is screwed because you don’t have any ‘oh crap’ buffer and reloading must be done actively unlike with moonbow), and because being slow and out of combat is just not what people would want to experience in the end, not in Vermintide.

If you really want to make moonbow 2.0 - not that I think it’s a good idea by any stretch - how about making javelins replenish passively over time? Does it check all the boxes?

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106

I understand the concern. Though, I don’t think I share it. If we take the comparison with:

  • Longbow: I have never seen the same spam (neither Legend nor Cataclysm) of the Longbow against the ambients as I have seen it for the Javelin. Longbow is not used against ambient horde enemies. It IS used against ambient armored enemies. However, no matter how good your aim is. The Longbow has a slowdown during the wind-up face, in addition to the time you need to aim for the head. It is by dimensions easier to spam a Javelin or two into the body. The difference between ambient kills between an average Javelin user and an average Longbow user is like day and night. Furthermore, Javelin could be used against hordes which I also rarely see the Longbow being used against. As for special sniping, you also have an easier time during pressure situations. Overall I think, Javelin would be the easier and more versatile weapon in comparison to Longbow which “mostly” is used as just specials sniper with the occassional ambient stormvermin.

  • Moonfire Bow: First of, I am happy to see someone actually knowing that MFB is a good and viable weapon on Cataclysm. Secondly, you have some differences here as well. Potential horde application is the obvious one. You don’t do this. Second is the burst potential. You are hard-capped with the Moonfire Bow. And usually, you wait until full recharge before the next burst because it is somehow frustrating to switch to ranged and notice that you don’t have enough charge. With the Javelin, you could reload at will, coming with the associated cost. Also, specials might take a while if the dot is needed for the kill while Javelin is either instant due to better breakpoints or staggers the enemy long enough for the second shot.

So in my head it would look like this:

  • Longbow: Special sniper
  • Moonfire Bow: Run & Gun with basic special killing capacities
  • Javelin: Versatile inbetween plus potential horde application
  • Swiftbow: Horde killer with basic special and elite killing capacities
  • Crossbow: Okay, I never played the weapon. It probably has usage
  • Deepwood Staff: Special/elite neutralization, especially in crowded situations

If my changes achieve this, I am not sure. As you said, different variables in combination.

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107

Hm-m, I do get some of that. Though - let’s first postulate whether we’re talking about current state of things on live, or pre-nerfs. Because, unless armor penetrations nerfs are reverted, javelin is not a weapon for hordes anymore in any shape of form; dead and gone since it doesn’t pack a fraction of its former AoE effect. So, that’s off the table if we speak about current state of things.

I do get the comparison with longbow, I really do, and I can see the potential for javelin to overshadow the longbow as an easier no-frills no-strings-attached version. Some advantages of the longbow will always stay (sorcerers probably would be the best example, they’re often at range that makes them hard to hit with javelin and two body-shots is often not an option before it teleports - here, moonbow and longbow shine because you can either score a headshot easily or do charged shot + light and let bow finish the target off after it teleported), some may be eclipsed. I’d hope the damage dropoff on javelin on far end of the range offset it.

The moonfire bow - well, it’s tricky. Yes, it’s viable as things go now (even if it loses to longbow), since it hits important breakpoints. But I’d argue that moonbow’s burst is higher than that of javelin, you can do more shots back to back. And that’s where I’d get back to my point about things fun and unfun: the drawback of cooldown is also moonbow’s fun side, because nobody ever enjoys being excluded from combat. The javelin’s manual reload is actually a huge drawback, and making it slower is something I consider a bad design because it excludes you from the game entirely. Yes, you can make an argument that others have weapons with manual venting, but only as an addition to (slower) over the time passive recharge, or manual recharge weapons like brace of pistols - but you still can fire them, just at slower rate, if you’re out. So, moonfire bow design is actually a good one, it lets you switch to melee and actually do something, reposition, get defensive, until a few seconds later you can kill that special. In case of javelin, make it slower to reload, and you’re just reducing the active combat time of a player and making them vulnerable. So, I dig Moonfire bow’s design is actually good, I just don’t feel we need another one.

So, in the end, in your list, let’s remove “…potential horde application” from Javelin bullet point. What would be its highlights? What would it be doing better than other weapons? Or your thought is to return the penetration while compensating for it by slow reload time? I’m just trying to figure how do you envision the javelin’s modus operandi going forward.

108

For clarification: The changes I suggested would be applied on the pre-patch version, the one with higher armor damage and cleave. Not sure if i would forsake the damage drop-off.

I get the point about being out of combat. Though, if we take the pre-patch Javelin as basis then the weapon needs a major drawback to be kept at bay. And reload is a thing for many weapons. I have never considered it problematic. If anything, I do think most weapons have to short of a reload, especially on ranged careers ^^’

I find your notion interesting that MFB has higher burst potential. I thought it can shoot 4 charged shots? Is that higher burst than 5 pre-patch Javelins? Also, you have general downtimes between hordes where you are not in combat anyway. So, the reload shouldnt be that bad.

Thinking about it, maybe reducing the Javelin number from 5 to 3 again. However, similar to Throwing Axes, you can pick it up again. Making the Cleave a potential drawback :stuck_out_tongue:

Other than that, there are not so many different roles and playstyles for ranged combat. So to a part it will feel samey all the time. It isnt made better by many people judging a ranged weapon solely on their special killing capabilities and calling everything weak that does not fulfil this notion.

Here, out of the box idea I just had: Javelin will be changed to “Blood Javelin”:

  • Same breakpoints and cleave as pre-patch
  • Ammo reduced to 1 and no trait interaction
  • Reload at least doubled if not tripled
  • No slowdown while reloading
  • Killing an enemy in melee with the Javelin makes the next throw not consume ammo

This way you have a new hybrid playstyle which relies on you taking risk in meleeing enemies but getting a free throw afterwards. This would need testing though. At least it would be something different and it would cripple spam.

109

Elf and GK nerfs were totally unnecesary…
Try something else than champion and legend before whining about the javelin, shade double dagger, or GK’s ult.
because in those difficulties everything dies by just looking at it a bit mean.

I find it a hard to believe that everyone who kept asking for javelins to be turned into basically what is now an arrow, has not seen jav players getting outperformed by a slayer, BH or even huntsman.
Given that you explored more of the game’s content than just the missions in the horn keep its just impossible.

Same goes for Shade and BH doing too much monster damage, but WP gets a buff that gives us +100% monster damage.
So was the Engineers buff, he was already insanely strong.

What was definately a good thing in this patch, was that pyro gotten some changes, eventhough he still feels weak, and personally i still wouldnt pick her over any of the other 3 sienna classes available.

Also quite sus how its always the DLC weapons and careers that get nerfed into oblivion after most of the active playerbase have gotten them, instead of within a couple of weeks after release, when there is already more than sufficient data availale to make changes.
Yet the core game does not give any close alternatives.

Look at how they made necro even stronger now thats its finally been released, just wait a couple of months, and look at it being completely dismantled and becoming obsolete once enough active players have bought it.

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110

A-ah, it implies pre-patch javelin. Now it makes things clearer in my head; I was assuming you’re talking about changes on top of post-patch javelin. It makes sense now.

And… I would say, it probably would work. With old penetration, with breakpoints met, and slow reload - maybe it would work as weapon for some horde control + occasional sniping, then going melee… I don’t think what you propose wouldn’t be viable. Full disclosure, now - it probably wouldn’t be a weapon I would enjoy using, personally, plowing lanes in hordes with javelins might be satisfying but it never was the javelin’s appeal to me, but I know a lot of people love it, so who am I to say otherwise. So, slow and clunky reload, massive penetration and careful management of shots available on-demand might have worked; I’d still say it’s a lot of tricky balancing to pull off to keep the weapon engaging, but hey.

MFB has four, for higher overall damage than (post-nerf) javelin. I don’t think javelin count should be increased to more than three again, but that’s my train of thought for what I think of javelin - three shots is enough for a special even if you miss or do a body-shot, then some time falling back for reload because you can’t block while reloading. But then, in your vision of javelin, reload time probably wouldn’t matter as much. Again, wouldn’t be my type of weapon - for me, the charm of javelin is in adding the much-needed melee damage to Handmaiden, since otherwise she can only hurt bosses with harsh language, but hey, to each their own.

I can’t really speak for numbers in earnest, it’s something I definitely would enjoy testing out with a mod or something like that. If it gives birth to a new playstyle, well, I won’t say no to that. I wish Fatshark had test servers to try new ideas.

111

Totally agree

112

the balance sucked

113

Although I don’t have many thoughts on it all, here are my rough, early thoughts, given the bugs are fixed, with only intended changes considered (and with official realm in mind):

  • OE ought to, at best, get bombs every 140 seconds, as the bombs are passively generated by the talent and he has 125 base health now. The no friendly fire part should be removed.

  • Sienna’s staves don’t interest me mechanically, so I’ll leave assessment of them and her careers to others.

  • I have issues with other parts of Bounty Hunter’s kit lacking synergy with his ranged weapons other than crossbow. He needs looking at.

  • Shade’s ult damage with Dual Dagger should have been changed rather than Dual Dagger’s own monster damage being nerfed.

  • I’m not sure if the Javelin nerf was right. The cleave reduction seems like too much, and the overall nerf didn’t solve the problem of spam; that spam is what annoyed people.

  • Warrior Priest did not need any buffs. 25% power vs monsters clashes with one of the stated goals of this patch.

  • Virtue of Heroism still increases only damage, not power. The fix need not be said. I believe that Warrior Priest’s Rising Judgement suffers from the same problem.

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114

Yeah agreed, wow they went overkill on those ones.

At this point I’m just assuming they don’t currently have a method to give power to specific attacks rather than everything or all melee/ranged and aren’t ever gonna make that happen, but at least a description fix would be nice if that’s the case.

115

Unnecessary and clunky

One of the advantage of javelineers is that they’re light and mobile and able to hurl their javelins while still quick in their feet. And this is a wood elf no less.

We’re not talking Trollhammer torpedoes here.

116

Damn straight.

I understood the frustration of going into fury right as the fight finishes so fixing that was good, but all the other buffs were unnecessary

117

That would seem odd to me. Piston Power works well only for charged attacks, and there are mods to increase the power of charged attacks (one of Foot Knight’s ult talents in Tourney Balance increases the power of charged attacks, Handmaiden has talent to something similar in Class Rebalance). There’s also Battle Wizard’s fully charged spells and Volcanic Force.

118

Piston power is more of an additional effect with charge attack as a proc condition than a power boost for charge attacks themself no?

The mod examples I can’t remember if they were actually power or just damage boosts but I’ll take your word for it.

I could definitely just be giving FS too much benefit of the doubt here :sweat_smile:

119

Ranged attack speed bonuses & ways to mitigate ammo consumption would probably help weapons like BoP.

More synergies between Blessed Shot, melee and his career skill would be nice.
e.g Activating Locked and Loaded refreshes Blessed Shot + Overall lower base ult cooldown

He’s already exceptional at weaving in and out of melee for buffs so playing to those strengths and introducing more combo mechanics would be wise.

121

BW, cant say i really notice the difference all that much even without lingering in use, she still torches hordes just fine for me. Pyro? Volans as a passive is one thing, but that talent for near cost-free venting too? Lets you both shoot freely with no drawbacks + use whatever talents one likes from the level 20 row, attackspeed or 20% extra ranged power. Then play Blazing refund roulette when the heat runs high. Before either going melee with loaded buffs or just venting for near free again and casting all over.

Note, 20% extra ranged power when on high heat works on the skull too, damage boost is notable.

Necro? Necro was already veeeery strong, no idea where the Sharks got the idea that she was “somewhat balanced” from. Melts poor monsters nearly as fast as hagbane WS if going for it, and everything else.

I cant say i feel annoyed by this at all, had a SoT Spamming it over on Righteous Stand with that talent for “ability gives 2 free crits” and she still had like less than 150 ranged kills by the end, easily more than double in melee. Then a handmaiden that joined halfway through screaming bell who got like 30, in total, threw several into hordes but got like one or three per toss? Each time before getting overrun and forced to melee. Both of them swapped over to moonbow during the next runs.

“Edit”

Double checked, the cleave limit is 2 clanrats/ungors.

122

Yea, the game has to much bomb spam. RV does it already. And the Trollhammer is also used constantly. I don’t think we need more of that. Rather less. Also, the no friendly fire does not exactly discourage Trollhammer Torpedo spam. Personally, I would also like to see the bomb generation and the bomb double effect in the same row so that it is an either choice.

I don’t think it was the right nerf. From what I have seen the Javelin is still spammed constantly on Cataclysm outside of hordes (for which not many people used it in the first place). And that spam is very annoying for me so I would like to see a change which discourages it. Ideally, FS suggests three different nerfs and makes a survey which one people could easiest live with. The current nerf does not achieve anything. Javelin is still obscene on Cataclysm. Still the majority pick, though there is an uptick in MFB because people finally realize that the weapon is strong for Cataclysm.

I agree. Not more, not less.

Cooldown reduction for GK was a good idea. I would like to see this for more classes.

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