Zealot Antisynergy

I don’t have any solution that takes into account everything. I’m just trying to ask questions to get a better insight on your proposed solution and try to challenge you with them.

Also i thought you didn’t like people suggesting reworks or ideas in your thread? Or did i missunderstand this.

Also i don’t agree with your solution. It’s a good bandaid but that’s it.

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what i dissliked, is not the fact that people suggest stuff but the shift in focus of their suggestions.
my personel focus on this thread was antisynergy hence the titel of the thread, and people made a balance/complete overhaul disscussion out of it wich isnt what i was looking for.

imagine your house has a water leakage problem and you consult people on what system is best suited to fix said problem, but all they do is talking about is selling the old house and what features the new house is supposed to have. building a house takes ages and Fatshark is certainly not the fastest team of architects (still love u guys)

while i do agree that zealot is an overperformer i strongly belive all careers should be fun to play and not be antisynistic toward each other and that most of the problems present could be easily checked in line without getting rid of his current identity wich i belive has a place in the game.

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I mean, I think it’s already become abundantly clear at this point that FS doesn’t really engage in bandaid solutions instead opting to just do big updates when they get around to them.

There’s been tons of feedback/suggestions asking for bandaid solutions re: zealot, traits, temp health, weaves and weapon balance (pre-BBB) and none of that has been acted upon

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I made a Poll for zealot around this topic to get a better view on what you guys think in a general sense

after playing him a bit more, yeah i’d like GK and WS health regen to work differently on him (maybe temp hp)

Zealot absolutley not OP. Complaining that in lower difficulties is "OP " is not a real argument because very career is. It’s true that his thp can easly be topped but it’s also true that he is the only career that has to pay a price for activating his passive.
The health rigen on him is just annoying it should be made in the passive that he can’t recive healing from external sources ( but natural bond shouldn’t work on him ).

He has the health and damage reduction of a tank, the Power of a melee only Career, that also effects his Ranged Weapon (which is dumb in itself), has Passive AS and an AS Ult, has some of the most versatile Melee Weapons in the game.

On Cata he’s the easiest DPS in the game to play, on Cata+, he’s better than every other Career with the 2H Sword- better than Merc with 2H Sword now too, because of the Ult DMGR changes on Merc.

He stands still at the start of the match and takes damage. That’s it. Then you can run Boon of Shallya while having a passive 40% DMGR from his Talents (basically a better version of Barkskin). Taking damage at the start of the match, and then ignoring that mechanic completely isn’t a fun design imo. After that the only time you have to think about it again is when healing comes up. That’s it. That’s the mechanic. Unchained, by contrast, has an active Passive, which is actually involved in gameplay.

I’ve played almost every Weapon/build variation on every Character, and Zealot to me is by far the most overpowered passively. There’s no single thing that makes him overpowered, but the spread of his Stats, versatility of his Ranged/Melee, and his ability to play almost solo are what makes him so strong.

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It seems like most of the opposition to ‘remove zealot antisynergy’ is ‘zealot is OP anyway just deal with it’. Even just assuming zealot is OP, antisynergy with other class talents is a very poor and situational way to nerf him.

Removing antisynergy is an easy win, then tackle any other issues with the class such as being too forgiving and personally strong for low effort.

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I think the point is that if you’re going to change the way Zealot works, you shouldn’t ignore the issue of him being so strong.

A bug/awkward mechanic as a nerf doesn’t seem good or fair to me either.

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I believe it’s 30%. For the purposes of dps uptime Healing Fortitude + Barkskin should be better because you should be constantly taking damage as Zealot and recovering quickly enough enough to take more damage. This gives Barkskin very high up time and amps up Zealot’s dps. If you aren’t constantly taking damage as Zealot than WHC makes more sense as a pick.
Besides, Crusade is obviously the right choice.

Every career that has at least one build that has versatile damage and mobility or versatile damage and the ability to make space has this. That includes WHC, Merc, Shade, Huntsmen, GK, RV, Slayer, Waystalker, BW and Handmaiden. There are probably more builds I’ve forgotten. GK just relies on positioning more to limit the attack angles of specials. Slayer barely sacrifices anything and can deal with specials almost as easily as a dedicated range career. Take Zealot with the 1h Axe as an example - they use it a lot worse than Handmaiden does.

I’d argue that Zealot is just another figure in a long line of careers that have it all and are need of changes. I’m all for Zealot nerfs if everyone else gets nerfed as well.

On Cata and up GK has higher efficiency with on kill temp generation due to better single target damage and the ult. Zealot can use cleave but that requires more effort than just hit trading with elites which is what on kill does for both Slayer and GK. I’ve found GK to be even easier than Slayer is, even on FoW and the metal weaves where Slayer with Oblivious to Pain basically has 50% damage reduction against everything on the map but the specials, simply because of how much damage GK does. I’m not even sure if Zealot has higher dps than Merc with the Greatsword because of the cleave difference. Even if they do, they don’t buff the team in any way like Merc does.

When things go bad Zealot has it pretty rough. 5 seconds is not a long time. No stamina or dodge talents except giving stamina back on being hit means Zealot can be tough to kite with compared to other careers of similar caliber. If they lose momentum they basically get overwhelmed and die, more so than even Slayer does.

Zealot is no more op with BoP than any Kruber is with the Repeater or Handgun, or even Handmaiden with the Longbow because of how fast they can shoot those arrows. Zealot often gets a lot of the damage dealt circles simply because they kill hordes well and because Flagellant’s Zeal is op.

I completely agree. Zealot needs a rework.

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This doesn’t change the fact zealot is the easiest and strongest dps to play. Yes merc and whc have better team support, but no way i can hit trade on merc the same way i can on zealot, unless in very specific ult windows. It’s just the combination, zealot is easy AND strong.

Also yes, whc/merc etc all have stuff that is op or broken

What price does he have to pay? Taking damage? Which gets completely neglected by taking heal talent. Even without the talents, you can easily get max stacks without going down, and if you make a mistake you have an extra life that regens. Literally zero risk in zealot, zero things you have to keep in mind, just spam m1, spam ult, bodyshot specials.

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Zealot just feels weirdly gimmicky too in a way that no other class does currently?

it’s like I just make sure I eat an overhead at map start and then go on autopilot

pretty much this, he’s just in an odd spot atm

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Again I think GK is the easiest. WHC has better dps. So does Slayer. The only time I found GK harder was when in true solo. In a decent team it’s just easy Exec headshots for days without having to care about the damage I take.

Zealot is easy. I’d like a rework for Zealot that focuses on the zeal aspect and makes them mechanically interesting.

Edit: Am I coming across as aggressive? I hope not. I’m worried that the wording I’ve been using has come across as curt.

It’s actually 45% with Calloused Without and Within.

The reason Zealot’s DMGR is better is because you don’t need damage to proc it. The duration of Barkskin assumes you take other damage after that initial hit, so it’s not guaranteed.

With his Passive DMGR Talented, you don’t run that risk. You also take less damage, making the Boon of Shallya combo a better choice.

I don’t value Movement Speed over straight up damage reduction. Most of his Weapons have enough Mobility (dodge #, and movement while attacking) to not need that Move Speed. Being able to trade is more valuable.

You also have enough killing power while trading to deal with threats.

Likely one build, depending on a specific Weapon, yes. Zealot can use any of his Weapons and have the same versatility. He gains 35% Power for his Ranged Weapons for no reason. That’s better than WHC (you don’t need to ping, and it’s Power vs ALL enemy types).

Add this versatility on to his tankiness and that’s why he’s strong. That’s before we even get to his Ults, and AS passive.

He should be worse than GK/Slayer as a melee (including survival). I think he is worse than Slayer, but not GK, because of AS and the versatility of his Weapons.

Also when compared to Slayer on Cata+, I’d say he’s pretty close because of 2H Sword. Slayer only has 2H Mace, which doesn’t do as much damage. The Power you get on Zealot makes Stagger not as much of an issue. The only Edge Slayer has there is Crunch.

Also doesn’t need the Charged his for his DMGR.

I doubt he can beat Zealot on Cata+, as the 2H Sword is just too strong against multiple Elites. I’d also take Merc/FK over GK on Cata+ for their utility. I’ve also had no problem out-dpsing and outliving on Zealot compared to GK.

But that’s exactly what he does with 2H Sword. You can be surrounded and just spin around farming THP like a blender. Keeping THP high on Cata and Cata + on Zealot isn’t an issue anyway. The only time on normal Cata it can be is when someone is ranged spamming when you’re low. If you’re likely running on-hit THP, then one Ult will see you back to at least 60%+ THP.

The reason Merc became worse is because of his Ult nerf. You can trade in the same way Zealot does anymore, making you have to play more defensively and lose damage. Previously Merc was better, but the nerf changed that. Running Faith’s Flurry also gives you more cleave for that build.

You would farm Ult by trading on Merc with 90% DMR or w.e it was.

I don’t feel this way at all on him. The only time things get sketchy is when you’re low THP, but you can just play passively until you get higher. Then you have 45% DMGR.

I’ve never felt this way on Zealot, not unless it’s ridiculous density with shields on Cata+, which is when I would want to get out as anything anyway. You can even use his Ult to escape.

The lack of Stamina/BCRaren’t something I worry about either. I run Chaos/BCR and BCR on neck as him, and AS/Chaos or Crit (for more Cleave) on the 2H Sword.

On normal Cata, I’ve played and watched other people play the entire match solo. He has so much killing power, THP generation and DMGR that he’s one of the best Careers for playing solo in that way. Even Slayer has downtime on his DMGR, whereas Zealot doesn’t.

I agree, they’re both silly for Special killing. The difference is that Zealot gets the Power with no need for 3 enemies hit, nor does he need to stagger an Elite for more Power (FK). He gets 35% Power for that Ranged Weapon before you even take stats.

I think his Special killing power and Boss killing (Volley, Crit/Monster + Hunter and a STR pot), make his Ranged Power too strong. Or Volley for Special killing, because of it’s accuracy while moving.

Compare that to Unchained, who doesn’t gain Ranged Power, despite being a Witch, and also has to actively control the power. It seems inconsistent to me, especially when he has better Melee in general, comparable to the pure Melee Careers.

Not comparable, imo. Needs a dodge for more Power, needs to draw, has a slower fire rate, needs to aim for heads or deal worse damage when you look at damage to fire rate.

He does most of the damage while being tanky and versatile. His Ranged has no business being that good.

I find how easy he is compared to his damage output to be an issue.

Also Faith’s Flurry is good too. I use that on everything except for 1H Axe, where I run CDR on Trinket instead of Crit too.

I mean that’s fair, Gk is pretty easy. For Gk to be effective you need to be able to dodge specials or get into melee range of them. For zealot this is not the case you can just bodyshot a special across the map (technically it does require some aim skill, but i would say bodyshotting is easier then dodging specials, but that can be argued about).

I disagree a bit, it all depends on which loadout and talents you go. If you go oblivious to pain its indeed just ulting and spamming m1, but he would be less tanky then zealot still. if you go grimnir’s focus, it’s still just ulting and spamming m1, but you either have to take a loadout where you heavy attack with most of the time, or micromanage your grimnirs focus. A weapon that comes to mind would be 2h hammer, where you’ll most likely heavy attack anyway and have it up alot (on hordes atleast). So this is debatable.

Also Wannna touch a bit on whc. Whc is also pretty easy with flense currently, but i consider it a op talent and would rather see it changed. If i have my idea of whc i would rather see him headshot focussed and thats why i wouldn’t say he is easy to play. if you look at the repeater pistol/rapier flense, yea thats pretty easy to play aswell.

Yes i agree with a team some classes can get alot easier to play then in true solo, but for this comparison i would like to just look at the classes themselves.

Yes same, currently he is way to ‘passive’.

Not at all.

Unchained doesn’t gain ranged power, that’s true, but her ranged options are insane. Unchained with fireball and your boss dps is pretty insane aswell. Also probably more consistent because she doesn’t need ammo.

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It’s the inconsistency though. I don’t see any need for him to get that Ranged Power, when he can easily reach breakpoints anyway. He’s basically got the pure Melee Power and mechanics, while having Ranged Power too.

And the fact that it’s Passive too.

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I thought all damage reduction was made multiplicative?

I was jesting.

Easier but lower dps.

If you aren’t taking damage constantly as Zealot and then recovering to take more damage you’re missing out on more dps from ult-generation and from having more windows to attack. Zealot can be played at 180 temp constantly but it’s not optimal or fun.

Faith’s Flurry is lower dps than Zeal unless you’re constantly taking damage for ult efficiency.

Anything on Handmaiden is an easy solo but spear. Anything on WHC but the 1h Axe as well. Merc relies on Spear (Greatsword doesn’t have enough monster damage but is otherwise good enough for solo). Waystalker is one trick I’ll admit. RV spams bombs and pots pretty easily. Huntsmen just has a good and quick stealth ult for easy resolving of any situation. Shade does Shade things with Dual wields.

I can’t speak for others but pinging was muscle memory for me pretty quickly. The Greatsword is not good elite dps. It’s easy and safe elite dps with good kiting ability.

Yeah, you’ll do more damage to infantry. That’s it. The stat at the end screen doesn’t divide the damage between elites and chaff. It just counts damage dealt and whoever got the last hit on elites.
I’ve easily done more damage as RV in melee than WHCs. I’ve also soloed the last runes of FoW. It doesn’t matter.

The 1h Axe deals with Skaven hordes poorly and relies on temp on kill, which makes it even worse for Skaven hordes.

Crits don’t actually have more cleave. Fatshark made that up. You’ll hit the same number of enemies crit or no crit.

Better ammo sustain and better for long distance targets. BoP isn’t accurate with alt-fire and at long distance while moving the normal shot will usually miss once if you aim for a headshot. If you bodyshot have less ammo sustain than WHC. “Needs a dodge”? That’s basically a passive in the same way Willow Stance is a passive 15% attack speed.

Slayer and GK basically have non-interactive and passive buff talents too. You just have to spam attack. You don’t even have to pick who hits you and consider how much damage you take to be optimal. Just spam and in Slayer case move so fast you can’t get hit.

No idea.

I trade a lot with the build. Faith’s is good for Cleave and THP generation too. Also gives you silly amounts of Stagger.

Also I like to get the Power up, and Volley+Hunter+STR combo Bosses. :heart_eyes:

I just find him better than all of them in terms of safety, while having the same level of damage. The versatile Weapons he has make up for his lower Elite-specific Talents. That in addition to the Power he can stack.

Cooldown, and also killing multiple Specials while doing other jobs.

That’s my point about Cata+ though. The control and saftey it brings while cleaving is what makes it so good. Only 2H Mace compares in terms of Cleave and safety while putting out actual damage on Cata+ too, but it stops on super armour. I kind of wish more Weapons had ‘super cleave’, including 1Hers.

Also on a side note, the Cleave of Falc heavies feels really strange. Not that it’s bad, it just doesn’t feel right not Cleaving more stuff.

I find him really versatile and good against Elites. Most damage dealt still means he dealt the most damage while also being tank and versatile against Specials. Unless there’s a BW in the group, I usually assume Zealots will top. Other than that there’s like one Shade build that can outdamage a good Zealot on Cata+.

I don’t find a problem with it. You can stand inside Hordes as him, and the Ult makes you slide around inside them. I usually face tank the Hordes with 1H Axe while also clearing Elites with Push-Attack combos. He gets so much Power that Skaven Hordes basically live on the floor in front of him.

Ah, ok.

Side note: another reason Merc was better before was the Crit% for damgur.

I mean they both have strengths, but I think BoP and RH are stronger than any other Special killers regardless of the passives. BH with BoP and Huntsman with RH are the two most underrated builds in this game imo.

Yeah, but as with the Zealot DMGR over Barskin, I value consistency with as little downtime as possible.

There’s times when it’s not possible though. E.g. blocking for long distances.

Greatsword has some of the best (if not the best) melee berserker DPS in the game, and clears infantry elites very nicely in general (and these are very common). Really it’s only against armour is it sub-par when compared to other weapons.

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Is greatsword’s berserkers damage better then other weapons?
I think the point velsix was making is that it’s not among the best on single target elite dps, but it shines in big packs and it’s easy and safe.

(If greatsword has the best or 2nd best single target berserker dps, then ignore me)

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