WHC Riposte

I really really like the concept of Riposte, it suits WHC very well.

It’s satisfying and rewarding to pull off but it severely slows down the pace of game-play which results in Deathknell and Flense being more favorable picks.

Handmaiden’s new attack speed on block talent got a huge quality of life improvement, though the numbers might be a bit too good now.

Putting forced reliance on blocking feels bad on a career that’s as focused on dodge gameplay as Handmaiden is. Instead we’ll experiment with adding more focus on weaving in pushing in the attack combos to gain the effect of the talent.

Easing the requirements for WHC riposte might make it a more appealing and competitive option to Deathknell and Flense. However, changing it to a guaranteed critical hit after pushing would be extremely OP.

I understand Riposte is a parry/counter attack. But for gameplay purposes it could be made more forgiving or given greater rewards for slowing down the pace.

7 Likes

Honestly I can’t disagree with that.

Its not that its a bad talent, Its just not that useful in the overall scheme of things. To be honest I am not sure I’d take the talent even if the other options were not Deathknell and Flense.

A lot of it has to do with exactly what you’re saying, it slows down gameplay waiting for something to happen.

Its just very passive and the speed of the gameplay negates it unintentionally.

EDIT: You know I take that back… there is one possibility where it might get chosen more often. If position in the tree where the +7% power trait and the Riposte Trait switched places, I might be willing to take this one over the Assassin trait.

Honestly, if it was just bundled with Deathknell it would be fine. That, or parry should come for free with it. Maybe even both.
Parry should also disable the recoil affect that happens when parrying overheads and other powerful attacks.
I’ve done some crazy stuff with Riposte that isn’t possible with the other two talents. It’s better for clutching than Handmaiden is. But it’s only truly ever useful when everyone else is dead. Adding parry to the default effect would help reinforce a defensive niche, and giving Deathknell would help it mitigate it’s very slow CW kill times and unfairly low boss damage.

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It would have to be buffed to obscene levels for me to choose it over the other two on that tier. I’m talking “after successful parry your next attack instantly kills your target”. Then I might persuaded to play matador with a CW overhead.

One of the strongest aspects of Riposte is the crit stagger it gives. It makes soloing a nearly infinite number of elites possible without having to hold block for long periods of time.

I agree with everything in your post. Somewhat of an aside, but whatever’s done to riposte could we give this new version to GK too please? 20% power from parrying is basically just a straight downgrade from WHC’s, and the guy even has an insta kill crit skill it would synergise with, wherein he can barely justify using that talent currently due to lack of crit chance.

Think how badass it would be to Bret Longsword parry riposte with a crit. So tasty.

2 Likes

I agree. Changing power to attack speed or crit chance after parrying would make for a good alternative to Stamina regen or healing and bump GK’s DPS to be closer to Slayer or Zealot.
Crit chance would create some synergy with Virtue of Knightly Temper .

2 Likes

That could work, but it would be similar to WHC. I’m not sure what to do about it, but I’d hate to see GK superseding WHC in melee completely. It lasts for 6s and isn’t limited to one hit. Unlike Riposte, it can reapply the effect while it’s already active.
I would instead add an extra effect of 15% attack speed. That way, it’s still different from WHC’s Riposte, and adds a significant amount of dps.

Virtue of the Knightly Temper could be changed as well, to something like (I haven’t really thought about the numbers much so this would be subject to balancing):

  • Enemies below 30% health and in an attack animation instantly die to heavy attacks. This effect is halved for monsters (logically that would instantly kill a Rat Ogre at 600 hp without using the ult).

Doesn’t have to be that, but something not crit based would be interesting.
I personally don’t think GK needs a crit centric build. We already have enough crit based careers.

3 Likes

I had another simpler idea for Riposte.

  • Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit no longer costs stamina and causes your next melee attack within 2 seconds to be an extra powerful critical hit.

How much more powerful? I suggest it increase the headshot power of the Riposte attack by 90%. This sounds like a lot, but in practice it means three things:

  • Tagged Cata Chaos Warriors get 1 shot by the full charge on headshot, untagged CWs take two Riposte partial charges (both breakpoints require 10% vs Chaos).
  • It does good damage against monster/lords.
  • The extra damage means nothing on man sized enemies which are instantly killed by the crit anyway.

This, with a small nerf to Flense, leads to the following balance:

  • Riposte is the defensive/boss killing talent.
  • Deathknell is the general elite killing talent.
  • Flense is the horde killing talent.

Additionally, making it so that the Riposte crit buff reapplies every time an attack is parried would help.

Edit: With the removal of flinching Riposte has the potential to gain a better defensive niche. My new idea is:

  • Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit no longer costs stamina and causes your next melee attack within 2 seconds to be an extra powerful staggering critical hit.

This would mean the push and critical attack would stagger enemies like before. Essentially it would need to either just flinch elites out of attacks, or have a high stage strength (not sure how much the stagger strength would need to increase by, but likely a lot). Otherwise the same as the last idea.

2 Likes

I have been maining WHC for a while, mainly because of, but not always with riposte.
I definitely don’t play the most meta build because I’m a fan of technical combat with a high skill ceiling.

I love the technical feeling it adds to the gameplay, making your timed blocks feel much more meaningful with a bigger reward for that accomplishment.
However, in usefulness it falls behind and I would like to list the key reasons for that:

  • Mitigated by your investment in crit chance. You gain 0 value from your crit chance items when riposting, unlike with deathknell and flense.
  • Requires being attacked. Means all the times you do not get attacked, you will get absolutely nothing from it, unlike deathknell and flense.
  • Requires parrying once attacked. Even when you do get attacked, messing up your parry, or much more common from my experience, having your team interrupt the enemy, again you do not get any of the bonus. On the contrary, you lose out on 100% of your dps when you parry instead of attack because you decided to go for a 1shot kill with ripose instead of a light attack (the pace slowdown people have been mentioning).

The talent would be brilliant on a counter-attacker such as the HM, FK or maybe even GK.
But the only way I see it making sense on WHC would be if it came with a competitive proactive buff as well. For example with a second component that does not boost the 100% crit chance part, such as + x% permanent crit chance, or even make it a core part of his kit, he is one of the characters with 2 instead of 3 traits apart from ult and passive, make it his 3rd and get something else in place of the talent.

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Why not make flense only apply bleeds on bodyshots?
And make riposte instead of having to block to activate a certain power, you get the power when used against an attacking enemy (aggro’d on yourself maybe). This is just an idea and would probably be too strong, but numbers can be tweaked and it doesn’t have to be a guaranteed crit.

So that would make: flense horde; deathknell overall hs talents; riposte high risk high reward single target.
I only thought about this for 5 mins just an idea

1 Like

I’ve been using Riposte more lately, I still think it slows down the pace a lot in some scenarios but it has been growing on me.

Two Handed Sword performs well with riposte, push attack is great with it and helps clean up elites.
One Handed Axe lacks with Deathknell and Flense, riposte again helps clean up with elites.
Rapier is quite possibly the king of riposte.
Flail can pull off some cheeky multi riposte kills.
Billhook I surprisingly enjoyed the least with riposte, it felt cumbersome and unnatural.


Maybe if Riposte was turned into a two parter talent it would be more competitive and could improve some synergy with weapons like One Handed Axe, Two Handed Sword and to some degree Flail.

e.g:

Pushing an enemy grants attack speed. Parrying an enemy grants a guaranteed critical strike.

Similar to the Handmaiden treatment.

1 Like

Please, not more free crit for him. He can have semi perminent 25% crit chance if enough taggable enemies are around and crit headshotfishing is already a thing…
Btw he has 2 hidden traits (5% crit and 25% headshot damage) making him actually the career with the most traits.

I could see Riposte as a trait for him though, as it fits his fencing style career makeup, where he already has no blockcost on attacks that would cost 1 stamina(i think)

Maybe some blockcost reduction on the talent? It would kinda fit:
A boost to defence and if you perfectly parry, your next hit will be a crit

I wanted to propose the very same thing at first, but i think with his high crit and crit headshot instakill, that would make him too op if you added even more obtainable attackspeed.

Really just depends how much, 10% might be just enough to make it competitive and make weapons like One Handed Axe on WHC more appealing.

Flense should still do more horde DPS. Deathknell.
Deathknell is a damage increase in practically all situations.
Atkspeed/RIposte is a small DPS increase and a very situational parry counter attack.

The other option is to build the parry trait into Riposte or work on typically unblockable attacks.

Ooooh, now that is an idea i like!
Salty and sienna both dont have a shield weapon.
While still being circumstantial concerninggameplay, I love that picture in my mind of a WHC pushing a ratogre’s gigantic fists aside with his rapier.

I have actually been thinking for a while now, that his riposte should be added to the Parry weapon trait to boost its pickrate. So why not have it the other way around too.

1 Like

New iteration:

  • Blocking just as an enemy attack is about to hit no longer costs stamina and causes your next melee attack within 2 seconds to be a staggering critical hit that deals double headshot damage. All attacks can now be parried excluding grabs.

The Riposte strike and push would flinch enemies, but for a shorter duration then the previous version of flinching. Again, parrying while the Riposte buff is up should reset the timer for the effect

There’s also the option of making enemies the WHC tags aggro on them for a fair duration. Maybe even a small team wide buff after the WHC kills an enemy with a riposte, to encourage team mates to not interrupt an enemy sometimes?

A lot (possibly too many) of effects for one talent. Not happy with how wordy the above description is.

I also wonder if simply removing Cast Away and replacing it with Riposte could work, since it has it’s own defensive aspects.

This is probably the most painful thing about the talent. Having a high stagger team, or even just a FK, essentially means you have to put yourself in insane positions to get ripostes. Of course this isn’t the team’s fault, it’s Fatshark’s.

That’s an interesting idea. Rather than just nerf it’s damage straight up, this would reinforce it’s anti-horde characteristics without making it significantly less effective against hordes. I’m still in favour of a simple but reasonable damage nerf to Flense, but this would certainly work too and be a good outcome.

Adding Riposte to Parry? I can imagine entire teams parrying alongside a WHC now. Pretty awesome.

1 Like
  • I like the idea of just adding attack speed to pushes in addition to keeping the guaranteed crit. Basically a better version of crowd clearer but justified given the strength of Death Knell and Flense. Also makes it a middle ground between single target and crowd control

  • OR add the enemies take extra damage after being blocked trait but make it 15-30% so it stacks with tagging

  • OR something based around whether or not the enemy survives. Maybe the enemy takes heavy bleeding damage if they survive the crit. Damage could be based either on the attack or be a base damage for every attack.

@Velsix This is a bit off topic, but do you think modifying flense so it’s otherwise as is, but deactivates your crit headshot insta kill passive would be too much of a nerf? It seems to me like it could be a reasonable trade for the amount of extra DPS it gives.

honestly i wouldn’t pick this talent if its dodge right before an attack instead of blocking (which is much better because u’re still attacking while dodging and doesnt slow down the combat).

i would consider this talent if it’s something like “blocking gives you a buff (lasting say 5 seconds) that gives your next attack a guarantee crit, this buff stacks to 10 stacks”.

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