Waystalker level 30 row rework suggestions

I’m not a big elf player so I’ll bow to others’ experience here. Nonetheless I’ll elaborate on my thought process here.

I just don’t like how extreme it is for weapons like longbow and hagbane. Either you take Kurnous and are swimming in ammo, allowing a very ranged focused playstyle, or you don’t take Kurnous and the difference to your ammo pool is pretty stark. Certainly not unworkable for longbow, but you do give up a fair bit of ranged uptime if you’re not always hitting heads Yes you can go the Scrounger route with swift bow, but you give up potentially running barrage or Hunter which seems a significant loss compared to just letting Kurnous handle the ammo regen and benefiting from all the bonus damage.

I’d rather see Kurnous given a reasonable restriction, like proccing once per Ult, and giving her other ammo sustain options to spread that regen a little more thinly across more builds. I certainly don’t think her current ammo regen with Kurnous is too little compared to other ranged classes. Quite the opposite.

Anyway I’m no WS main, so if people who play her more think it’s fine as is, sure, I won’t argue further.

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I mean, that’s just how it is in general for the ranged careers: if you don’t do the one thing that enables endless spam then you have to play a lot more conservative.

Look at BH without Scrounger. Or Huntsman without Shot Crafter. RV can sometimes get away maintaining a ranged heavy playstyle without taking Grungi’s Cunning on some weapons, but a lot of that is due to how few allies are looking to take bags these days between GK and the new elf weapons.

Have to say I’m not a fan of that one either. HS at least has built in CS, RV has 10% ammo bags, Sienna has no ammo to begin with. If anything BH and WS feel more like the exception to the rule. WS does get +100% ammo which definitely helps and enables things like Scrounger Swift bow but it’s not ammo regen in and of itself. Anyway that discussion is turning into another topic altogether so I’ll leave it at I agree it’s not massively out of line with other things in the game but I don’t enjoy the effect it has on build variety.

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That´s the setup i use myself even now, but, i find that on maps with terror events or just during high pressure situations where you end up forced to bodyshot (packmaster behind something tall etc) the ammo depletes really quickly. Piercing does alleviate that but there´s a lot of stuff that can cause it to fail x)

Being forced into using conservative shooter or kurnous no matter what on the longbow is also kind of killing build options in a way. Why have all those options if only those are legit? How this affects the chaos wastes is also a deep hole.

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How so? Piercing isnt a hitscan shot and it doesnt stagger and the refund is autofailed if your teammates get clipped by it first or jump up infront of the shot.

It does have range and rather good damage but it´s far from infallible.

I call bogus on part of that, you cant use swiftbow as it is intended to be used holding left click into hordes without kurnous to keep the ammo going. The aimed shot is only good for bigger targets or skaven hordes that it does pierce slaverats in.

I run both scrounger and kurnous on mine and i still run out easily on chaos hordes if no specials pop out/teammates shoot em first.

Max crit chance for swiftbow = 15%, scrounger ammo restoration = 5% per crit = 5 shots per swiftbow crit = 15 crits out of 100 shots = 75 extra shots.

******edit *****

Also more crits off those extra shots so you do get a lot of ammo, still, swiftbow does still drains a lot if using rapidfire.

Looks like it´s a ton but then you realize you are basically firing 10 arrows per every few seconds, and suddenly it isnt a lot. Especially not when some enemies take 3 shots to kill. But you are absolutely right about Longbow. It does work with conservative shooter and that´s the setup i run myself. With drakira and huntress for maximum risk/reward.

.* * * *

ehm… ammo pouch passive ranger veteran has going? Or how wizard can have a silly high uptime too? Or even engineer with is minigun depending on build? The only one that is really shafted and makes for a good argument is BH.

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Math is not quite right here, because those extra 75 shots give you crits too. At 5% you get 135, at 10% you get 200 at 15% you get about 400 shots, and at 20% you have infinite ammo assumingyou hit all your crits.

Here’s a detailed analysis I wrote up:

You can validate these numbers experimentally by counting shots in the keep. You gotta count fast though.

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-…fk i completely forgot about that in my haste, doing math and reasoning while hurried is not a strong suit of mine T_T

But yeah you are right, if correctly factoring in that you score crits off the extra shots fired then even by just crudely using my method i think get a bit more than 400 shots off.

Really puts into perspective how much one has to fire to run out, and how many enemies there to eat a/several shots to actually enable that at times.

Will have to test to be completely sure though, but it sounds about right.

I have put in like… maybe 8-10 more hours on waystalker and I can say with some comfort that one of the only reasons I don’t pick the other two level 30 talents is because I am a range focused class and I want to bow my bow as much as possible. There just isn’t enough sustain from traits unless I go full crit/scrounger which I am frankly just tired of running on every ranged career. It’s nice to have alternatives.

The other thing is two of those talents are straight upgrades while piercing shot seems a little more like a side-grade, especially because of the opportunity cost of not picking the straight upgrades.

The odd thing is, though, that if it weren’t for my intense desire for ammo sustain, I would happily pick all three. I just don’t have enough options that let me keep using my bow through the whole level.

That’s why I think (and stand by my original suggestion) that it would be nice to have a little bit of ammo sustain in lower talent tiers, like free shots on very close targets, or ammo refund on healing an ally through medical supplies / hand of shallya or something.

This would also help everyone who is sub level 30 who are very limited ammo sustain wise.

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I´d like to highlight that going by my original suggestions then the only level 30 talent that gets a big overhaul is loaded bow, piercing arrow and kurnous are basically preserved. I do not think those two are off the mark by any wide margin in terms of what they are now.

And i too have the idea that a ranged class ought to be using the ranged weapons a lot which means ammo sustain is a pretty needed thing, you wont always have headshots lined up and accessible. Hence the idea that all 3 level 30 talents include some manner of ammo sustain, and i didnt suggest any such options for a lower row because it´s too likely that such an option would enjoy the same position as the old ammo regen one.

Overshadowing other options.

Oh yeah on this point I guess I was thinking it wouldn’t overshadow too much because you’d have sustain options in multiple rows so you could flex on either one but get sustain from the other, as long as both rows had a sufficient sustain to work alone.

Hm true, the old monopoly case would be less likely with at least two options available, longbow for instance would be able to smoothly run piercing arrow at least with something to help ammo out.

But even so i think it´d be nice to have some ammo sustain on all 3 level 30 options since you can then have more varied talents below that. Her level 10 row is one i actually really like even though i know most people do not touch drakira´s alacrity even with a pole.

If her level 25 and 20 rows could also be that nice it´d be great, or even if just options like ricochet (has never really worked) and huntress were reworked into more functional and fun things.

Most of the WSs I encounter, including myself, use Piercing Shot much more than Kurnou’s. The only case WS really need Kurnou’s atm would be for Hagbain build, in which case I think granting it sufficient ammo sustain without Kurnou’s could be too much. Piercing Shot + Hagbain almost sounds dreadful to me. I’ve said that ammo sustain issue may be independant from her ults but I now find her talents made like that for good reason, including 30lv ones.

@Kitten if you’re about/interested, this is a topic I’d love to hear your take on.

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On my end i think i´ve seen like 1 or 2 outa 10 waystalkers use PS, they were using swift/hag/longbows.

Of course my perception is skewed since i myself play WS a lot which lowers the amount of others that i can see, but i do enjoy occasional games as slayer/WHC/merc.

That is a very valid concern, i had it in mind hence i never suggested that PS should ever offer as much ammo sustain as KR, and instead opted for going :

With the above in mind the ideal thing would be bow specific ammo sustain, hagbane getting the least for instance. And even though this would take time and effort to navigate i think that eventually it would be good to do so rather than leave things as they are now.

With 3 bows basically hard locked into KR if you play on a high pressure level if you lack a godly aim, and the only other 2 options are not even particularly good on WS. Plus a cherry ontop being that one of those ability choices being just really stale (loaded bow) even if effective.

Maybe change loaded bow to
“For every 30% of max ammo still remaining, Trueshot Volley fires an additional arrow. Otherwise, recovers 5% ammo.(dummy numbers)”,
or something similar? No idea about sustain, but it sure would be less boring.

Since nothing has changed with WS since the BBB, I guess this thread is still relevant and valid feedback:

As usual, it has the feedback of everyone in the thread added to the initial post to make things easier to read.

TLDR:

Last 2 rows of WS are boring or don’t allow for much choice because of the strength of Asrai Focus (20% CDR) and Kurnous’ Reward (Ammo on Ult).

  • Piercing Shot is still good, but is the higher effort version when compared to spamming with nearly unlimited ammo
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Tbh I would actually like Kurnous toned down in favour of a little baked in ammo sustain.
Same goes for Bounty Hunter and Ranger Veteran. (BH is the worst offender imo)

I’d rather see ammo sustain/mitigation scattered throughout their kits like Huntsman rather than putting all their eggs in one basket.

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That’s fair, but I should hope that it is plain to everyone that the way ammo sustain is currently handled is a systemic balancing issue that cannot be fairly solved by merely buffing one or two talents.

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Absolutely. On the other hand assuming a broader reaching ammo rebalance isn’t coming, all we’re really left to do is discuss each class and their issues individually.

Before anything else is done with WS I want the old CS trueflight interaction back. Never seen anybody have an issue with it and it was a fun alternate source of ammo sustain. @FatsharkLev or whoever is most appropriate for this topic, please bring this interaction back.

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pyro cries, a long time ago her skull(or before it’s a skull) is famillar with waystalker.

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