Volley and Swiftbow Nerfed Too Much

While I think there is validity to nerfing swiftbow and Volley. The nerfs targeting the wrong aspects of the weapons. They are both primarily anti-infantry weapons. They just suck at that role on live. We are now back to the same issue in the beta.

What should have happened is Volley should have had its ammo nerfed while Swiftbow should have had it’s armor damage lowered. Now they are both abyssmal in comparison to other horde clear options and abysmal at sniping in comparison to sniping options, rendering each weapon a very sub-par pick. This is not good for build variety or the balance of weapons, generally. Please see the video for horde clear timings. Note that I tried to skew the test in favor of Volley and Swiftbow. Enemies in a perfectly straight line are where they should really shine. Further, reports of S-bow and Volley Xbow horde clear being too strong were clearly overblown in comparison to the horde clearing capabilities of other ranged careers.

Time results for 10 fanatics and 10 Marauders on Cata:

Blunder: 1.5 Seconds
Grudge: 1 Second
Fireball: 4 Seconds
Swiftbow: 9 seconds
Volley: 9 Seconds

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Lame. Ill edit the post and give timing.

While i agree that the change back wasn’t the best choice, and i don’t think they are better horde clear then other weapons, the video to demonstrate or compare it isn’t really correct. talents, properties, didn’t see rv build, but that’s just me getting stuck on secondary things again, and even if everything was the same it would probably still come to the same conclusion. I do agree with the main argument of this thread.

edit: removed earlier comment, to unclutter

Actually everything was skewed in favor of Swiftbow and Volley. I could have ran same properties though.

Edit: RV was beserker armor and resourceful on grudge. Attack speed/crit power on charm.

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I was wondering about that. Wouldn’t it be more in favor of, lets say, swiftbow to put enemies in a line. Wouldn’t volley clear more enemies in a more traditional scenario?

Well, volley doesn’t really cleave anything. So that might help it comparatively. However, you would probably just end up having to reload way more which would mean more of those 4 second no dps windows. So in the end, I think it would be worse for volley. Especially because you can’t cleave a marauder. So if a marauder is in front, thats automatically 2 bursts even if a fanatic is behind it.

Edit: In either case, volley was never just deleting hordes as people were saying on the forums. Even in the most ideal scenario with AI off, it’s horde clear is pretty mediocre. And god forbid someone puts a shield in there.

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Well can’t really disagree with the actual results. And to be honest with you my prefered choice would be the same as yours.

I knew whichever way they went though, it would push it in one direction or the other.

Dropping the cleave was going to make it so you would have to fire more ammo to do horde clear… but they would have the enormous amount of ammo like many were pushing for. So they’d sustain it, but on a per Bolt basis it would take more to take things down.
(akin to the way Swiftbow works, ie weak but lots of ammo expended, I personally think this is already the way Repeater Pistol works so is redundant))

The Revese of keeping the Penetration but lowing the Ammo back to the level where WHC only gets 2 back on Scounger but BH gets 3 back would would mean less ammo expended but less ammo to be fired. Like a True Shotgun blast to take things apart.
(Stronger individual attacks to take things down, but not as much ammo to be able to expend unless you’re a BH)

So those were the original choices… either more ammo… or more effectiveness.

Fat Shark picked More ammo over more penetration. This is the result of what player feedback selected.

Sadly I agree. I’ve tried the current volley bow a couple times, and the cleave just feels like the cleave from live (it doesn’t feel like the +33% cleave it’s sitting at now compared to live is enough to actually reach any additional cleave breakpoints).

Like your post implies, what the weapon should be is Saltzpyre’s equivalent to fireball, blunderbuss, grudgeraker, etc. But instead it now feels like yet another special sniping option for Saltzpyre to throw on the pile, leaving him with no hordeclear option like the other characters have. I would sooner they give the cleave back and revert the ammo buff entirely, because at least then the weapon would have its own role instead of just being an inferior version of the BoP or Xbow.

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That’s really the only part I don’t agree with,

When I did this thing on WHC on the last patch… when combined with the Melee side, my kill score was sooo over the top it wasn’t even funny when it had both Penetration and additional ammo.

BH, its not as much of a problem, but WHC it really was. And that was the only ranged weapon that could do that on WHC.

You would run out of ammo on WHC w/ a lower ammo pool.

Right, so aren’t we on the same page then? I just feel like it would be better to have the cleave than to have the ammo.

Edit: So basically, my thinking is this: The volley bow is by design, a burst damage weapon, where its overall output is mitigated by its very long reload (still 4 seconds after the buff). As such, its overall effectiveness is determined mostly by how much damage it can put out in a single magazine. Because of this, choosing ammo or choosing cleave isn’t a 1:1 choice, as having a bunch of extra ammo isn’t all that great if you spend more time reloading the weapon than firing it because those 15 shots didn’t kill what was in front of you. Therefore, Fatshark chose the option that hurt the volley bow far more.

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Like I said man, I run with Always Prepared on WHC, and I run a high crit rate that’s the nature of WHC. Granted Scrounger is RNG but it was almost neverending ammo.

WIth WHC you have 59 ammo at 14/44.

So when you’re blowing away hordes in single fire one shot at a time with that kind of penetration, you’re wiping out a good 60 in a horde before they even get to you, getting back 3 ammo on each crit.

(Speaking of whick you should have probably run your testing with it using that method on the last patch so you could see it, also re-arrange your test with Chaos Zombies which mostly make up the horde)

BH gets 68 Ammo at 15/53.

Honestly BH doesn’t really need that much ammo as he has blessed shots on it. So each time he fires a charged shot on his Blessed shots it gets 9 ammo back.

So when BH is firing single shots into the incoming horde (with previous penetration level) he’s actually able to pull off the same wipeout of 60 dead horde mobs on a single clip plus the odd 3 back on on a trigger pull on scrounger not including his Blessed Shots.

As long as BH’s initial ammo does not go below the 59 he gets back 3 on scrounger.

Its when WHC is at 59 and getting back 3 ammo on scrounger when combined with his elevated crit rate that he gets a ton of ammo back.

I just don’t think you’re understanding. Ammo before buff was 30 for WHC and 45 for BH. You couldn’t maintain ammo on WHC w/ 30 base ammo.

Same test left clicking was 18 seconds. That’s not a good strategy for horde clear. Also, it was same makeup for every career. IDK about legend composition, but there are plenty of marauders in cata hordes.

No I get that.

But what I am doing is showing you what you can run with the Beta Version WHC at comparable ammo levels. Because they really that way are with WHC. Its how I was racking up so many kills over and above my melee kills which put me so over the top.

Sure if WHCs ONLY take the base ammo level… and not the Always Prepared along with it the way I do they WILL run out of ammo spamming. But that’s the point.

Its when you combine those things ON WHC, you really do get that kind of ammo (and return with scrounger) at current levels… and when you added that to the boosted penetration it was way over the top.

Yes,
but I was talking about the previous level of penetration on the last Patch not this one.
But to get a better representation of the Horde you need to use mostly slave rats or chaos zombies.

That’s really what I was getting at.

So you were agreeing that the ammo should have been nerfed instead of the cleave?

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Wouldn’t have changed the result in comparison to charged shots. Left clicking into hordes is sub ideal dps.

Yes

Saltzpyre’s Repeater Pistol already functions akin to the Waystalker Swiftbow as the high ammo, low damage weapon so its kinda redundant to do the same with the Volley.

As outlined in the post I made testing volley bow cleave:

I wouldn’t mind it so much if you could effectively spec to get your cleave back, but currently this is barely possible on BH.

Assuming Zealot’s Power works for ranged cleave, he could probably cleave marauders + extra fanatics with it no trouble and no investment + he has Smite to help with ammo sustain. So ironically it’s probably significantly better on Zealot than BH at the moment. That just feels so wrong.

If FS refuses to revert the cleave nerf, they need to give BH a way to reliably spec to get his cleave back. A very neat option would be to make Weight of Fire affect ranged cleave (value may also have to be tweaked slightly so as to allow cleaving 1 marauder with no further investment. From my testing 15% is around the amount needed anyway). This would solve two problems at once by also making Weight of Fire actually have a build where it’s optimal, and this would in no way buff BH, as he has to give up the incredible Open Wounds talent to take Weight of Fire.

Or they could just revert it, which your testing is convincing me would be fair. Swift bow really should probably have its armour damage dropped a bit, but I have negligible experience using it, so I’ll divert to someone with more experience on that one.

To be clear, are you only talking about Saltzpyre’s Volley Xbow? (And not Shade’s?)

Like I’ve mentioned in the post that suggested the Volley Xbow nerfing, Shade needed the ammo pool buff for her Volley Xbow as otherwise it’s superseded, in all aspects - be it horde killing or specials killing by her other ranged weapons. In the live version, it is not even a good ‘in-between’ weapon among her other ranged weapons. Its ammo pool should reflect its low damage per bolt and high ammo consumption status.

Shade Volley Xbow charged shot is different, not being like Saltz’ three-bolt wide spread shot (which is better for clearing hordes), but more of a burst fire repeated shot.

I am kinda confused on why they nerfed Shade’s Volley Xbow too, considering the difference between the charged shots and Shade’s lack of an increased ammo pool talent (WHC) or passive (BH).

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Yes. I haven’t played with shade’s.

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