Do I understand that correctly; you’d want it to not refresh the timer even if it’s applied again before it runs out?
Because that sounds like all you’d have to do to get around that is to simply wait out the timer.
You could still have 100% uptime but now it’s annoying to use.
Also, would that even be needed if the CDR was changed to be like zealots?
no, I was referring to the part where you can go back +50 from 0 within the 15s timeframe.
Veteran is secretly a Chaplin thats why.
I too appreciate it for my inner snowflake, but while calling it a trap is a bit much, it definitely and significantly nerfs the ult:
Ironically, the spammable normal version is likely to save your team from the dmg that led to the rez being needed in the first place. Not to mention how most of the time when you do need a rez at all, the normal version will both be available AND large enough to buy you the time to just rez them normally while the enemies are disabled anyway.
Ok, I think I get it now.
So you shouldn’t be able to regain all your toughness eventhough you regained the ability, while still under the effect of it?
If you implemented the CDR changes, would that even be needed?
I don’t disagree that in principle the shout without res is superior. Ideally nobody gets downed, and a larger area of effect and shorter cooldown can actually help prevent anyone from going down in the first place. I think my argument still works if we discard the ability to ress.
You’re argument is that the shout makes the game easier.
That argument works for every single ability, so that’s not the point, clearly.
It’s easy to use and powerful and can be kept active for a perlonged periode of time, all that is true.
So it’s either too easy or too powerful then.
Can’t make “pressing a button” harder, so harder to keep active and or make it less powerful.
Sounds to me like the recent zealot changes should just be applied to all CDR nodes 
I’d personally would prefer them to be percentage of averall CD, instead of +regen speed but that may just be me.
Like I said above:
Voice of Command is dumb as hell because it’s brain dead easy to use and extremely spammable. There is basically zero skill expression to it, not even a need for basic positioning to get value from it. (You just get even more if you’re not positioned like a complete potato, even if it only applies to yourself it’s strong as hell)
Having a skill floor higher than the ability to hit buttons is usually a good start for an ability as strong as VoC. @Margeret-Dayhoff mentioned this aspect of it too, not just the “shout makes the game easier.”
Hit shout, kill a couple specials, hit shout, repeat. There’s absolutely no need to do anything differently, it exclusively makes things easier with no associated downside. Even smite (which I dislike) has more to it than shout. (Admittedly smite is a blitz, not an ability)
To an excessive degree, yes. That’s basically it. It does too much for a single ability.
Every single shout-type ult in VT2 also has 0 skill expression and that’s completely fine.
It doesn’t actually need that. Half the selling point of shout ults is that they are easy to use.
The only problematic part is how often you can get the shout, something that’s not true for the VT2 shouts. The one that’s the closest, ironically enough, is Mercs with CDR talent.
You can get that one faster than the THP runs out too but that’s the whole point behind it. One major thing to keep in mind however, VT2 does give you downtime in which you don’t need your abilities to be up.
DT at higher difficulties (T5+) does not allow for that downtime.
With the higher difficulty yet to release, I wouldn’t wanna see it changed just yet. Maybe it needs to be that powerful for that difficulty, who knows.
I wouldn’t want shout to be any different on a per activation basis. If anything, making it a decent bit harder to chain together is probably the right call.
Yeah this thing with how easy it is to get a good use out of, is an important component. You don’t need to be facing a particular enemy, or perhaps fitting a specific clump of units into a directional cone to stun them. You can basically ignore enemies behind you and just shout. And it can even be used preemptively to buff your toughness up higher before wading into the fray.
In many situations it makes a mockery of good positional play, and you can help teammates even with your back towards them. This feeling of being able to effectively “AOE heal” up everyone’s toughness, even preemptively, and also stun even monstrosities and blessed mobs, with very little care for optimal positioning, is too much for one ability.
Once you’ve dipped into white toughness, you should not be able to go above until the next activation. As of now, as long as you are within the 15s window, you can go from 0% to 100%+50 any time, unlike chorus, which is a one time boost, that you can not regain.
The CDR changes are needed across the board on all classes, as flat CDR just lets you linearly scale with difficuluty, it being almost always density in DT’s case.
Merc shout has triple the base cooldown of VoC and less ways to get it back. (Barring taking damage, which applies to every ability)
See above regarding cooldown. Merc shout also gives 25 THP (AKA 25% or less percentage wise) and only works once that health is lost in the first place.
Gold toughness is also not comparable to THP overall, THP is a temporary refill versus a proactive shield. Gold Toughness also has the added benefit of overshielding you and preventing other sources from piercing it on top of that. It would be like if the merc shout gave you an extra 35-40 THP that could cap over your max health and prevented any damage until it was all completely gone.
It’s not comparable at all, barring the fact that VoC is stronger than Merc shout in the first place while coming up in one third the time, before any cooldown reductions.
To be honest making that comparison is kinda shooting yourself in the foot, it only emphasizes how absurdly strong VoC is.
Yes the fact that it is available as often as it is, and with high special and elite density, having 2 or more veterans on the team you can essentially just wade through walls of bulwarks, maulers, and crushers while cycling shouts, provided the team can keep up enough dps to rake down elites and specials for the constant cooldown reductions. Which it definitely can if you’re running boltgun or plasma veterans.
As I wrote earlier, in the most extreme case I have seen I played psyker on a team with 3 shout vets. Clandestium Gloriana with I-II-V-E-G modifier (which imo is among the most difficult). Blessed mobs and monstrosities everywhere. Swarms of crushers and bulwarks, blessed maulers, the whole thing. We basically strolled through the map.
The map is doable with any team composition, but it’s nowhere near the cakewalk the triple shout team. Nothing else compares. And it felt like literal cakewalking. Nice and soft, tasted of chocolate and whipped cream.
mfw I accidentally got “On Overwatch” (No melee damage taken) when leveling my veteran on high intensity damnation because shout is stupidly good. (I saved this from a while back specifically for topics like this 
)
Bonus points that I even tend to be a very melee heavy veteran, I have no interest in being an M1 gun vet. (The scoreboard is just to show that I wasn’t sitting in back or something)
It get’s interesting when you combine chorus with VoC. If you’re affected by both, your new cap is the two combined until chorus runs out.
I’m not 100% sure that you couldn’t regain chorus toughness once it’s been removed but still active.
I now actually understand what you meant by “one time thing” and I don’t know how to feel about it.
It essentially being a consumable shield instead of a higher tier, higher cap of toughness would bring it down without removing the utility that makes it strong. Sadly it would also indirectly nerf a whole list of talents which benefit from the higher cap being regenable.
It was never going to be. Two different games with different mechanics. It’s only similar in concept, which was my point.
Both are supposed to be easy to use, both are supposed to be (relative to the game) spamable. Both are supposed to give you passive, defensive benefits.
That DTs version needs to do a lot more to achieve the same thing, makes sense. In this case, it probably just does too much. I’m waiting to see what the new difficulty brings before I can get a final stance on how strong it is.
I remember getting mine, at level 12 playing with buddies, on accident. They played faster than me and I was fresh out of VT2 so I wasn’t hit in melee.
It isn’t though. Merc shout requires people to actually have room for the THP in the first place, if you just spam it on cooldown you’re going to be wasting a lot of its potential. It’s similar in the very general “AoE support shout” but beyond that they function pretty different in practice.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to debate then. I think you’re expecting too much from Havoc, to be honest. If it’s suddenly ‘not’ broken in Havoc that just is going to mean the mode has fundamental balancing flaws if it’s the way they’re trying to ‘balance’ abilities by bumping up the difficulty constantly in general.
Playing this endless game of bumping up the difficulty rather than reigning in the couple of outliers is, to be blunt, incredibly stupid design. If VoC is somehow not broken in comparison to the difficulty of Havoc then that just means the other abilities are going to fall even further behind.
Spoilers: The answer is not to bring them up so that they’re then also broken in anything outside of Havoc. It would not shock me if they do something like having one of the modifiers be “Gold toughness no longer prevents damage from leaking through” or something which doesn’t fix it at all outside of Havoc and is just annoying and inconsistent in Havoc.
Do we really have to play the one up game? 
Mine was uphill both ways playing with randoms, etc, etc. In the snow!
Besides the obvious power, and how this ability scales too well with auric modifiers (maybe the cooldown reduction should also have a cooldown?), I can totally get the discontentment with having a vet with big lungs outpush a psykers force push, omnidirectional and with additional benefits.
The early beta force push, ok, but right now, it’s a bit odd. ^^
That would be a brutal nerf to Gunlugger.
Merc shout is very spamable, since you just need to take some hits for the Ult to be back in no time. Thanks to how easy it is to regain THP in VT2, taking some spanking is not a big deal, which is why this mechanic got removed in the tournament rebalance mod.
But this point is nonsensical anyway, since comparing VT2 balancing to DT is about as realistic as comparing Applepie to Gulasch.
Where is the difference between Infiltrate, Chorus, Shroudfield, VoC, and especially Bubble?
You press the button preemptively, or reactively and it still does its job. Just click the button and watch the magic happen.
Ok, in theory, there is potential to waste, fair enough. Realistically that won’t be an issue. There’s even SoT so even if another teammate or you don’t need the THP, she can absorb it instead.
I probably am, true.
The point was more that VoC brings the skill requirement down to win on certain difficulties but I find it hard to argue that it’s so strong that it wins the missions for you. The strength of every ability is conceptual to the difficulty the game presents. VoC is crazy in all difficulties currently but theoretically, havoc could be “so insane” that VoC could be fine there. It’s not praticularly realistic, grant you, but you get the concept. It’s not smart design, hence why havoc will very likely not be “making-VoC-just-fine-kinda crazy”. I just think that reasonable CDR changes would be enough to bring VoC down to an acceptable level of power.
I’m not against an ability to make it easier for mid players to do a bit better. Obviously if a good player now uses that ability, it’s overtuned but would you rather not have an ability to help bridge the gap?
I’d find it hard to argue that there shouldn’t be such abilities.
Sorry, that was not the intention at all, it was just funny to me that someone else also got that penance done when they weren’t actively going after it ^^
If we were going for a comparison, I’d say mine is not that impressive. I had good teammates that esseantially cleared the map for me and I was already proficient in that genre of game. You had to do it with randies which I wouldn’t want to do, knowing my luck with randoms.
Obviously there is a point to VoC making that penance a lot easier to get but was it the sole reason why you got it? I’d argue you had to have a decent bit of skill to pull it off regardless if you had VoC.
